Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Salomon. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Re-direct examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Stood right in front of the wagon during the Haymarket meeting and was arrested by Officer Foley. Disputes Officer Wessler's and Foley's testimonies in court that the man who fired at him was Fielden--earlier Wessler had claimed it was Stenner who had fired at him. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.L 283), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.L 284), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.L 284), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.L 287), Fielden, Samuel (vol.L 287), trajectory of the bomb (vol.L 290), "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.L 292), Spies, August (vol.L 296), Parsons, Albert (vol.L 296), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.L 296), weapons in the crowd (vol.L 287), Metal Workers Union (vol.L 293), learned about the Haymarket meeting from "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.L 299).
Testimony of Frank Stenner, 1886 Aug. 3.
Volume L, 282-301, 10 p.
Stenner, Frank.
Machinist; German immigrant.
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[Image, Volume L, Page 282]
FRANK STENNER,
a witness called and sworn on behalf og the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. Salomon, and testified as follows:
Q What is your name?
A Frank Stenner.
Q Where do you live?
A Live at 149 East Indiana street.
Q How long have you lived in the city of Chicago?
A Since the 4th of May, 1885.
Q What is your business?
A I am a machinist.
Q For whom do you work now?
A I am working for Messrs/Schmidt.
Q How long have you worked there?
A Two months---it may be a little longer.
Q Where were you on the night of the 4th of May?
A Walking around the streets and at the meeting on the haymarket.
Q What time did you get at the haymarket?
A I can't tell you that exactly. It was about nine o'clock.
Q Where did you first go when you got at the haymarket?
A I went to my friend. He was a waiter on a restaurant, corner of Franklin and Lake streets.
Q At the haymarket, what place did you first arrive at?
A Near Randolph street.
Q How long did you remain there?
A I guess about a quarter of an hour.
Q Where did you then go?
A A little more down near to the wagon.
Q North, west, south or east?
A North.
Q About where north?
A Well, about near the alley?
Q Where did you then go, or did you remain at that place?
A Right by the wagon.
Q Right near the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q How far from the wagon? did you stand?
A I stand from the wagon when Fielden was talking about four or six feet, and when Parsons was talking about fourteen feet. When Spies was talking, right on Randolph street.
Q Were you there when the shooting commenched?
A Yes sir.
Q Where were you standing at the time the shooting began?
A Behind the wagon, at the side of the wagon.
Q Which side of the wagon?
A The east side.
Q Where on the sidewalk were you standing? Close to the building'?
A Close to the building, I guess.
Q Did you see what transpired there, what took place?
THE COURT: "Happened" is a good word.
MR. SALOMON: Q You may tell what occurred there just previous to and up to the time that the police came upon that scene?
A Well, I seen the policeman approaching----it was about in the night at half past ten, and Captain Ward told the speaker Fielden: "I tell you in the name of the
People of the State of Illinois"---I don't understand it very much---and Fielden said "It is a peaceable meeting" or "We are peaceable." He said something like that, and Captain Ward told him once more, and he said "All right" and went from the wagon, from the west side. He went from the wagon. And when he went from the wagon I heard a big shot. I didn't know what it is. I heard it later that it was a bomb.
Q What followed upon hearing that big shot---did you hear any other shots?
A Yes sir, very many. I heard them shoot when the bomb was thrown. The policemen they shot.
Q The policemen shot?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you see anybody else except police?
A I didn't
Q Did you notice where Mr. Fielden went and what direction he went in?
A I didn't.
Q What did you do?
A I was arrested.
Q What did you do immediately after the shooting began?
A I laid myself on the steps of Crane Bros.
Q You laid yourself right on the steps of Crane Bros?
A Yes sir.
Q How long did you remain there?
A A few minutes.
Q What then did you do?
A A policeman came and arrested me.
Q What policeman was it that arrested you?
A I don't know. As far as I can see in the Tribune, when I see in the Tribune, I guess his name was Foley.
Q And Wesler?
A I didn't see Wesler on this night. I seen him when I had my trial.
Q When you were arrested, were you taken before a Justice of the Peace at any time?
Objected to.
THE COURT: It don't cut any figure.
MR. SALOMON: I wish to show that he did identify him, that he swore that he was the man that stood behind the wagon and fired the shot at the police.
MR. GRINNELL: Go ahead and ask the question. It is in impeaching question.
MR. SALOMON: Yes sir.
Q Did officer Wesler identify you at the police station and say that you were the person that fired the shot behind the wagon at the time you were under examination about three weeks after the 4th of May?
A Yes sir, I was in my cell, and he came around and came down there and said "Do you know that?" And he showed me a revolver. I said I didn't. He said "I show it to you. It is your revolver."
Q Is that all he said?
A Yes sir, he said it in the cell.
Q Did he swear or state before the justice that you were the man that fired the shot?
A I don't understand very much. I guess he said----
MR. GRINNELL: Don't guess.
THE WITNESS: He said to the judge, "I seen this man on the steps of Crane Bros., and from this place there was a shot, but I don't know whether that is the man or he is not. I guess that is the man who shot." That is all I understood there.
Q Now was a revolver found by the wagon, a revolver which he had there, or do you know where that revolver was found?
A I knew the revolver was found. Wesler did not find it. Foley found it.
Q Where was that revolver found?
A It was about fifty feet from the wagon.
Q More or less than fifty?
A It may be more.
Q Were you a prisoner at the time he picked it up?
A Yes sir.
Q Did he have you in custody?
A I was a prisoner.
Q Do you remember what kind of revolver it was that he exhibited there?
A I guess Wesler and Foley said it was a 38 calibre. I don't know what kind it was.
Q Do you remember if part of the cartridges were exploded, some of the shots?
A Yes sir, he said three shots were out, and three was in, or two was in.
Q That is the same revolver he found about fifty feet or a little more than fifty feet away from the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you see Mr. Fielden or anybody stand behind the
wagon and fire any shots?
A No sir.
Q At the police?
A I didn't.
Q You were how many feet from the wagon at the time you were at the steps?
A Sixty feet about.
Q Did you notice how many people were around the wagon?
A I can't notice exactly. There was about four hundred the first time, and there was more than four hundred---
Q About how many people were on the wagon?
A I can't tell you that.
Q In the wagon?
A Well seven or eight, sometimes more and sometimes less.
Q How were the crowd around about the speakers wagon, as to being peaceable, quiet or otherwise?
A I guess they were peaceable.
Q There were no disturbances of any kind---were there any disturbances?
Objected to.
THE COURT: There has been no claim there was fighting there.
MR. SALOMON: Q Did you see anybody have a pistol there? Anybody around the wagon?
A I didn't.
Q Did you see anybody exhibit one or hold one up?
A I did not.
Q Or show it to any person?
A I did not.
Q Did you see people that stood around the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q Those that stood on the streets and about the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you hear anybody about the wagon make any excalmation or cry out or speak at any time?
A I did.
Q Were they quietly listening?
A Some said---I can't tell you that in English,---some said they were right, and some they were not right.
Q How is that?
A Let me tell in German.
Q Some said the speakers were right, and some said they were not right?
A Yes sir.
Q You heard those exclamations or statements from people that stood around the wagon and discussing what was said by the speakers---is that what you want to be understood as saying?
A Yes sir.
Q Can you recall anything that was said by anybody that stood about the wagon?
THE COURT: Q What words did anybody say?
A Somebody said, "Hang them up," and some called "Rats" and "You are a liar." When Parsons was talking one man stand by the side of me said, "You are a liar" and another one said "Rats." When he was talking about McCormicks they said "Hang him up,"--- those were a few words I hear there.
Q Was there anything else said besides what you have just now stated?
A I don't know, I can't remember.
Q Was that said once in a while, here and there, or constantly?
A Here and there.
Q Only here and there?
A Yes sir.
Q Were the statements or exclamations of that kind made as many as half a dozen time
Objected to.
THE COURT: How many times did people say it?
A I don't know.
MR. SALOMON: Q About how many according to your best recollection?
A I can't tell exactly.
Q Did you see Mr. Parsons get off the wagon?
A I didn't.
Q Was there any shot fired from the wagon before the bomb exploded, before you heard the loud report which you afterwards discovered was the bomb?
A No sir.
Q Did you observe Fielden after the time that he got off the wagon---did you notice him?
A Yes sir.
Q Can you say positively whether or not Fielden fired a shot?
A I didn't see him fire a shot.
Q You were looking at him were you?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you at any time have a conversation with the States Attorney?
A Yes sir.
Q About how often?
A About three or four times.
Q Did you tell him what you have here stated?
A Yes sir.
Objected to.
Q Did you notice from where the bomb was thrown or where
it came from?
A No sir, I know nothing about it.
Q You know nothing at all about it?
A No sir.
Q You don't know what distance it came from?
A I don't know.
Q When was it that he showed you this revolver at the station and wanted to convince you it was your revolver?
A When I was arrested, in the cell, about half an hour before I had my trial.
Q How long after the 4th of May?
A Three weeks.
Q Three weeks?
A Exactly three weeks, yes sir.
Q At the time he identified you as the one that fired did he mention anybody as firing shots, or say anything about anybody else firing shots?
A No sir.
Q Or identify anybody else?
MR. GRINNELL: Is that in the cell?
MR. SALOMON: No sir, this was in the court room?
THE WITNESS: In the court room---will you please tell me once more----I don't understand it.
Q I will put it in this way: At the time you were under examination before the Justice, did the officers say it was anybody else that fired the shot?
A Yes, he said---he said "I don't know whether it was this man or anybody else, because there was some more men on this place."
Q What oficer was that?
A Wesler, I guess.
Q Did he say anything about Fielden?
A I don't know.
Q Did he describe anybody else?
A I don't know.
Q Do you remember whether he described any person---you don't remember, do you?
A I can't remember.
Q He said he thought you were the man?
A Yes sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. Grinnell.
Q Where were you in the police station that day---that was before Justice Scully, wasn't it---Justice Scully, Desplaines street station?
A Yes sir.
Q Wasn't that the man's name---the Justice you were before?
A Yes sir.
Q You heard Wesler testify?
A Yes sir.
Q Who was your lawyer there?
A I guess Ryan or Byam.
Q Didn't Wesler testify that there was a large man, or a good sized man with big whiskers near the wagon firing and shooting---didn't you hear him state that in the Justice court?
A I can't remember. It may be he said so.
Q Did you understand anything that was said?
A I didn't understand everything, no sir.
Q How long have you been in this country?
A I have been here exactly one year and three months.
Q Did you talk English before you came here at all?
A Not a word.
Q You have learned it quite rapidly. You have learned some since the 4th of May?
A Of course.
Q You can understand better now than you could then?
A Yes.
Q You have talked English and German a good many times with Salomon since that time?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, at that day in the police court, Wesler testified that he didn't know whether you shot or not, didn't he?
A Yes sir.
Q And you were discharged, you were let go?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, how did you come to be at that meeting that night, Stenner---you saw a hand bill, didn't you?
A Yes sir, I did.
Q Look at that---is not that the kind of hand bill you saw? (Showing witness hand bill with the words "Workingmen come in full force and armed.")
A That is the hand bill. A man give it to me.
Q Is that the kind?
A Yes sir.
Q Are you sure that was it---do you read German?
A Yes sir.
Q You read English. Did it have there "Workingmen come in full force"?
A Yes sir.
Q This sentence about arms?
A I don't know whether it was this or the other one?
Q Have you heard about the other one?
A Another man gave me when I was in the meeting.
Q That was the Revenge circular?
A I don't know.
Q Was it bigger than this?
A I don't know which one it was.
Q What meeting was that you saw that at?
A The meeting before.
Q Yes sir.
A It was a meeting of the metal workers.
Q That was on Monday night?
A Yes sir.
Q Where was the metal workers meeting held that night?
A I guess at No. 99 West Randolph street.
Q Is that Florus or Zepf's hall?
A I don't know. I guess Seamann's.
Q Seamann's hall?
A Yes sir.
Q You were there at the metal workers union?
A Yes sir.
Q When the bomb exploded you were looking at the police come up?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you hear Fielden speak?
A Yes sir.
Q What was it he said?
A When he saw those police he said "stand."
Q He said "stand" in a good strong tone?
A Not very loud.
Q You heard it?
A I heard it.
Q How far were you from him when he said it?
A From whom?
Q From Fielden?
A Well, about six or eight feet,---I can't
Q You think the police fired first?
A Yes sir.
Q You are sure of it?
A Yes sir.
Q Are you sure that any one else except the police fired?
A I can't tell you. It may be they shot.
Q When you heard that bomb go off, it made a big noise?
A It did.
Q The firing began almost at once?
A Yes sir.
Q You were scared?
A I was.
Q You rushed right back down those steps by Crane Bros. and crouched down behind the steps?
A I did.
Q You didn't look to see who was firing, and who did not?
A I looked into the policemen.
Q The policemen came along up and found you there and arrested you?
A Yes sir.
Q Then he walked by the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q With you in charge?
A Yes sir.
Q After the firing had ceased, after they got thorugh firing---that is right?
A Yes sir.
Q There was not any more firing when the police took you down? Was there any more firing after the police got hold of you?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you walk right south on the sidewalk?
A Yes sir.
Q How far south from that wagon did you go before Foley picked up the pistol?
A It was about fifty or sixty feet.
Q That is almost down to Randolph street?
A Yes sir, pretty near Randolph street.
Q You are sure he picked it up there?
A Yes sir.
Q You cannot be mistaken about that?
A I cannot be.
Q The firing was going on yet?
A Yes sir, it was.
Q You were trying to keep out of the way of the shots?
A I can't understand.
Q Did you see that circular at the metal workers union?
A I guess this is the one.
Q Who brought it there, do you know?
A I donIt know.
Q Did you see the man bring it there?
A Yes sir.
Q Would you know him if you saw him again?
A Maybe I know him.
Q Look at that man there, and see if he is the one, right there, sitting next to this lady?
A He was the chairman there.
Q Exactly.
A He didn't carry this paper.
Q He didn't bring it?
A No sir.
Q He was there?
A He was the chairman, yes.
Q Do you know the man's name that brought it in?
A I heard it.
Q What was it?
A I suppose I heard it.
Q When did you hear it, that night?
A No, later.
Q At that meeting did you hear it?
A No sir, not in the same night.
MR. BLACK: I object to what he heard.
THE COURT: It is not competent.
MR. GRINNELL: Who was on the wagon when the bomb went off?
A Only Fielden. He was off from the wagon when the bomb was thrown.
Q Just before that, just before Ward got up there, the police captain, just before he came there?
A There were very many.
Q Who were they?
A I know not all of them.
Q Did you see Spies there?
A I seen him.
Q What time of the night did you see him?
A About nine o'clock.
Q Did you see Snyder?
A Yes sir.
Q Was he on the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you see Brown, a man by the name of Brown?
A I don't know.
Q Did you see any of the other defendants on the wagon besides Fielden?
A Fielden and Parsons.
Q Was Parsons on the wagon just before the bomb went off?
A I don't know.
Q Was that man on the wagon? (Shows witness photograph of Schnaubelt)
A I don't know.
Q You have seen the photograph before?
A Yes sir, I have seen him.
Q Didn't you tell me in my office that man on the wagon?
A I didn't, I told you it maybe he was there.
Q Did you see that man there or not?
A It may be I
saw this man before, but I can't tell. I don't want to swear I saw this man stand on the wagon, or not.
Q I sent for you last week?
A Yes sir.
Q You came in to see me?
A Yes sir.
Q You told me Salomon and Zeisler had been to see you?
A Only Salomon.
Q You told me your story?
A I did.
Q You told me Salomon had been talking with you?
A Yes sir.
Q Found you at your house?
A Yes sir.
Q And that Salomon told you that he defended you in the police court?
MR. FOSTER: That is not cross examination, and I never knew before that it was a crime for a lawyer to talk to a witness. If I have a witness in my office, and I have a conversation, a personal interview with him, when I place him on the stand as a witness, and he is interrogated, have the other side a right to go into a conversation between myself and the witness, going into detail of what I told him?
THE COURT: To see whether there have been any improper inducements or not.
MR. FOSTER: If the object was to see whether I instructed him to tell the story different from what it was, but without any such object, simply to narrate what I told him---I have never known it to be admitted.
THE COURT: It is always admissible to ask a witness what communications he had with attorneys, relating to the same subject matter.
Exception by defendants.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. GRINNELL: Q I will ask you when you saw Mr. Salomon prior to coming into my office last week?
A It was three or four days ago.
Q At your house?
A Yes sir.
Q What did he say to you?
A He came in and said Well, I like to see you"---something like that. He said then, "Come out of the house, because I would not like to be talking to you inside. I didn't know who it was.
Q Did he say anything about defending you, about his having defended you over in the Justice court?
A Yes sir, he did.
Q You didn't recognize him?
A I didn't.
Q That night of the meeting, did you see that circular the night of May 4th, or one like it?
A One like it, yes, sir. I guess it was not so big. It was a smaller one I guess.
Q Not so big as that?
A No.
Q Was it a meeting at the haymarket? Was it for a meeting at the haymarket?
A Yes sir.
Q Where abouts were you when you saw it, when you saw one like that?
A I don't know whether I saw one like that or
not---the other one.
Q That big one?
A Yes sir, I am sure.
Q How did you know there was a meeting at the haymarket?
A In the morning, I read a paper in the morning about it.
Q The Arbeiter Zeitung?
A No sir, it was a carrier--- he carried them around, all over.
Q Was that the kind of notice---was it a newspaper or circular, like that?
A It was a circular like that, but I don't know whether it is this one or not.
Q How early in the morning was it?
A It was about nine or ten o'clock in the morning.
Q Where were you when you got that?
A On the west side, on Lake street, I guess the corner of Lake and Clinton, I guess.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Foster.
Q Now Mr. Stenner, when Mr. Wesler was talking to you, did he talk German or English to you?
A I guess he talks English. He talks German too, when I was in the cell, but not to me. To the other fellow.
Q He speaks German?
A Yes sir.
Q When he was talking about this revolver, or asking you if it was not yours, did he talk German or English?
A He talked English.
A You understood him?
A Yes sir.
Q You say Mr. Fi lden said "stand"?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you remember the word "stand"?
A Yes sir.
Q Did he in that connection say "Stand together if you are going to succeed in the eight hour movement?"
A I don't know.
Q You remember the word "stand"?
A Yes sir.
Q Your English was not as perfect then as now?
A No sir.
Q In that circular here---here are two. One said "Workingmen arm yourselves and appear in full force," and the other don't---which one did you see before you went to that meeting?
A I don't know.
Q You don't remember that it said "Workingmen arm yourselves and appear in full force"?
A I can't tell you.
Q You say in that conversation with Mr. Grinnell he showed you Mr. Schnaubelt's picture?
A Yes sir, he did.
Q And tried to get you to say that you saw that man on the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q Don't you remember that you did not pay a lawyer to defend you at the Justice court?
A I did not/
Q Don't you remember that Justice Scully appointed a lawyer to defend you, and a good many others, and this is the man?
A He was not the man.
Q There were different lawyers?
A Yes sir.
Q You were defended with a lot of others there, about
twenty?
A Nineteen, I guess.
Q Several lawyers in the case?
A Yes sir.
Q You thought the lawyer that defended you was not Salomon? but some other lawyer?
A Yes sir.
MR. GRINNELL: Q Your case came up all alone?
A No sir.
Q Others with you?
A Yes sir.
Recess to 2 O'clock P. M.