Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Salomon. Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Attended the Haymarket meeting and stood directly across from the wagon. He was shot and arrested. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.L 303), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.L 304), Fielden, Samuel (vol.L 303), trajectory of the bomb (vol.L 305), position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.L 305), medical care and wounds (vol.L 304), weapons in the crowd (vol.L 304), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.L 304).
Testimony of Joseph Gutscher, 1886 Aug. 3.
Volume L, 302-310, 9 p.
Gutscher, Joseph.
Shoemaker.
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[Image, Volume L, Page 302]
Court re-assembled at 2 o'clock P. M.
JOSEPH GUTSCHER,
a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. Salomon and testified as follows:
Q What is your name?
A Joe Gutscher.
Q Where do you reside?
A 116 Randolph street.
Q How long have you lived in the city?
A For nine years.
Q What is your business?
A Shoemaker.
Q Are you in business for yourself or work for some one?
A No sir, I work for some one.
Q Where were you on the night of the 4th of May?
A I was standing in that crowd in that meeting on Desplaines street.
Q Where on Des laines street did you stand?
A Right across from the wagon, the other side of the street.
Q The west side of the street?
A Yes sir.
Q How far was it to the north or south of the wagon that you stood?
A It was south.
Q Towards the south?
A Yes sir.
Q Were you there when the police came to that place?
A Yes sir, I was there.
Q What took place when the police arrived?
A I didn't
hear that.
Q What happened there, what took place, what ocurred---anything said by anybody when the police came up?
A Nothing.
Q Nothing was said?
A No sir.
Q Did you see any shooting there?
A Nothing, nobody.
Q Did you see anybody shoot --was there any shooting there?
A No sir.
Q Did you see any flashes of shots or see anybody shoot a pistol?
A No sir.
Q Do you understand my question?
A Yes sir.
Q Was Mr. Fielden talking?
A Yes sir.
Q What was he saying?
A I couldn't tell. now.
Q You couldn't tell what he was saying?
A No sir.
Q You were shot at no time?
A Yes, I was shot.
Q By whom?
A I don't know from whom.
Q Was there anybody standing around you?
A A good many more.
Q Now, did you notice when the police came up, there?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know whether they fired any shots?
A Yes sir.
Q Now state what they did. Tell us just exactly what they did there.
A When the meeting was pretty near over the police come in and started shooting.
Q The police began to shoot?
A Yes sir.
Q Who did they shoot at?
A Shoot at everybody what
they find on the street.
Q Did you see any body except or besides the policemen shoot?
A No sir.
Q Did any one excpe the policemen there, that you know of, have a pistol?
A No sir, I didn't see anybody.
Q Where were you shot?
A Was shot in the back and in the leg.
Q Two places?
A Yes sir;
Q Did you notice the crowd there before the police came in?
A No sir.
Q Did you notice whether they were quiet and orderly?
A Yes sir.
Q Everything was quiet?
A Yes sir.
Q How far from there did you live?
A About a half a block.
Q Do your remmeber what was said?
A No sir, I don't remember any more.
Q Did you hear anybody say "Here come the bloodhounds"?
A No sir, I didn't hear anybody.
Q Did you hear anybody say, "You do your duty, and I'll do mine?"
A No sir, I didn't hear.
Q Didn't hear anything of that kind?
A No sir.
Q Nor hear anything like that?
A No sir.
Q Do you know how far west you stood out on the south
side of the street?
A Yes sir.
Q On the west side of the street and south of the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q How far south of the wagon?
A Oh, it was about thirty feet from the wagon.
Q About thirty feet south?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you stand on a line with the alley?
A Yes sir. I did.
Q Just simply indicate here about where you stood. Here is Randolph street. Here is Desplaines, here is the alley---now point out about where you think the wagon stood. This is the west side of the street---this is the south---that is the north and that is the west and this is the east (indicating on diagram.
A I stood there (indicating).
Q Did you stand about opposite the alley?
A Yes sir.
Q Directly on a line with the mouth of the alley, so that you could look up the alley?
A I was standing a little more south of the alley.
Q Are you sure about that?
A Yes sir.
Q Now you know where the bomb fell?
A It was about from the place where I was standing, it was about twenty-five or thirty feet from where I was standing.
Q South or north?
A South.
Q Twenty-five or thirty feet south?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you see where it came from?
A No, I didn't see that.
Q Didn't you see anybody in the crowd have a pistol on that night?
A No sir.
Q Did you hear anybody talk about pistols?
A No sir.
Q Or using pistols?
A No sir.
Q Or hear anybody talk about attacking the police?
A No sir, I don't remember that.
Q Now, after you were shot which way did you go?
A I didn't go very far. Just laid down.
Q You laid down?
A Yes sir.
Q What was then done with you, what did you do?
A Nothing; Foley took me to the station after that.
Q Was there anybody besides yourself stood near you, shot?
A Yes sir.
Q How many of them?
A There was three.
Q How many shots did they receive?
A I know he had three shots, one fellow.
Q How many did the other have?
A I guess one.
Q Any others that were shot in the vicinity of where you stood?
A Yes sir.
Q How many more?
A I didn't see any more, could not remember no more.
Q After you were shot what did you do--where did you go?
A I did not go no place.
Q Where were you taken to?
A To the station.
Q Who took you there?
A The police.
Q Were you locked up?
A Yes sir.
Q How long were you locked up?
A I was two weeks.
Q Two weeks or three weeks?
A Two weeks.
Q Did you talk with Mr. Furthman, that gentleman sitting there? (Pointing to Furthman)
A Yes sir.
Q And he talked with you, didn't he?
A Yes sir.
Q Where were you when you were shot?
A Where I was?
A Yes sir.
A On the sidewalk.
Q How far from where you first stood?
A It was twenty-five or thirty feet, something like that.
Q What direction were you going when you were shot-- which way were you going when you were shot?
A I didn't go no place, no where.
Q Did you stand right still?
A Yes sir.
Q Is the bullet still in you?
A There is one.
Q Not taken out?
A One of those right through my leg.
Q Which way did it enter your leg?
A Which way it goes in?
Q Yes sir.
A This is the place (indicating.)
Q And came out the other side?
A Yes sir.
Q On which sidewalk were you at the time you were shot?
A Right across the street of the wagon.
Q On the west side of the street?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, which did you see first, the shooting?
A No, I seen the explosion first.
Q What did you do then. Did you turn around or did you go away, or what?
A Just turned around and seen those people run away, and I run too.
Q You started to run too?
A No, I didn't run, Just turned around.
Q And seen the people run away?
A Yes sir.
Q When you turned around, was that the time you were shot?
A Yes sir, that was the time I was shot.
Cross Examination by
Mr. Ingham.
Q Which side of the street were you standing on when you were shot, east or west?
A West.
Q Where were you standing with reference to Crane's alley?
A North or south of the alley?
A I was south.
Q How much south of Crane's alley were you?
A I was about three or four feet from the alley.
Q South from the alley?
A Yes sir.
Q Where do you say the bomb fell?
A It was about twenty five or thirty feet from where I was standing.
Q Which direction from where you were standing, which way?
A South.
Q You saw it didn't you?
A I saw the explosion.
Q That explosion was about twenty-five or thirty feet south of where you were standing?
A Yes sir.
Q How many columns or lines of policemen were there that you saw?
A I couldn't tell you that. It was a dark night.
Q How many rows?
A I can't tell.
Q So dark that you couldn't see?
A No.
Q How long had you been there at the time of the explosion?
A About two hours.
Q Where did you go first after you got to the meeting?
A I just go to it, to hear and listen to it.
Q Up to the wagon, near the wagon?
A No sir.
Q Where then?
A The other side of the street.
Q The west side of the street?
A Yes sir.
Q Were you on the west side of the street all the evening?
A Yes sir.
Q Listening to speeches on the other side?
A Yes sir.
Q Where were you hit when you were shot, what portion of your body?
A That is the place, right in the back, and once on the leg.
Q You were taken to the hospital?
A Yes sir.
Q And kept there several weeks?
A For one week.
Q What doctor treated you?
A I forget his name now.
Q Do you remember his name?
A I forget his name.
Q Was it Murphy?
A No sir.
Q How did you come to go to the meeting--why did you go to the meeting?
A I see so many people come and go, then I go to listen to it.
Q Just because you saw it?
A Yes sir.