Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Foster. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Briefly attended the Haymarket meeting. Met and spoke with Whiting Allen (vol.K 159-170), reporter for the Times. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.M 10), socialists and/or socialism (vol.M 33), the Alarm (vol.M 22), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.M 1), Greif's Hall (vol.M 2), Zepf's Hall (vol.M 2), Furniture Workers' Union (vol.M 12), Central Labor Union (vol.M 2), Spies, August (vol.M 7), Parsons, Albert (vol.M 4), Parsons, Lucy (vol.M 4), Schwab, Michael (vol.M 21).
Testimony of M. D. Malkoff, 1886 Aug. 5.
Volume M, 1-36, 36 p.
Malkoff, M. D.
Former reporter for the Arbeiter-Zeitung; Russian immigrant.
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[Image, Volume M, Page 1]
Aug. 5th, 1886. LO o'clock A. M.
Court met pursuant to adjournment.
M. D. MALKOFF,
a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examired in chief by Mr. Foster and testified as follows:
Q What is your name?
A M. D. Malkoff.
Q Where do you reside?
A At 268 W st Randolph street
Q What is your business?
A I am a correspondent now for a paper in Moscow, Russia.
Q What has been your business in Chicago?
A I was reporter.
Q On what papers have you been reporter?
A Until May 5th I was reporter for the Arbeiter Zeitung. I did some work for the Morning News, and then I was a reporter for the Sun.
Q Did you continue to be a reporter for the Sun as long as the Sun was in existence?
A Yes.
Q You are now reporter for Moscow paper published in Russia?
A For paper published in Moscow, Russia.
Q I will ask you if you were at the haymarket meeting at any time on the night of the 4th of May last?
A I was there for three or four minutes.
Q What was your business at that particular time-- that is, what detail did you haveas a reporter for the Arbeiter Zeitung office?
A I was assigned to report all the meetings
on west Lake str et and on the north side.
Q Did you perform any of that service on the night of the 4th of May?
A Yes sir.
Q At what meting?
A I reported the meting of 54 west Lake street, the meeting of the Central Union, and from there I went to Zeph's hall to the m eting of the furniture workers.
Q At what time in the evening was it that you attended the haymarket meeting so called?
A I think it was ten minuts befor nine---something like that.
Q Who was speaking at that time?
A Mr. Parsons was speaking.
Q How long did you stay at that meeting?
A For about three or four minutes.
Q Was that three or four minutes the only time you were there during that meeting?
A Yes sir.
Q Then where did you go?
A I went away from the meeting. I went to Zepf's hall.
Q Zepf's hall is just north on the next corner?
A Yes sir. It is a block and a half, I think.
Q Did you h ar the explosion of the bomb and the firing of the pistols from Zepf's hall?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you remember where you were at the particular time you heard the noise?
A Yes sir.
Q Where were you?
A I was in Zepf's hall standing
There was a stove in Zepf's hall. I was standing with Mr. Allen, the Times reporter.
Q Who is Mr. Allen?
A He is reporter for the Times.
Q What is his first name?
A I think it is Whiting Allen.
Q When did you first see Mr. Alen on that occasion?
A I have seen him when I came from the meeting, from that open air meeting, the haymarket meeting---I met him in the hall.
Q Working with Mr. Allen before that?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you have a conversation with Mr. Allen?
A Yes sir.
Q How long did you remain in Mr. Allen's company?
A I remained the whole time I think when I came in. I had a short conversation and Mr. Allen left the hall and I went up to Zepf's to look for the meeting of the furniture workers, and went I came down Mr. Allen was there again.
Q Was still there?
A Was there.
Q I will ask you if at any time you saw Parsons at Zepf's hall that evening?
A Yes sir.
Q How long was it before you heard the explosion of the bomb according to your best judgment?
Objected to.
The Court: When did you see him.
Mr. Foster: Was it or not before the explosion of the
bomb? A It was in my estimation, it was from five to ten minutes.
Q In the first place, before or after?
A It was before.
Q How long was it before the explosion of the bomb according to your best judgment?
A I think it was from five to ten minutes.
Q Where was Mr. Parso s when you saw him?
A He was sitting I think at the first window, at the window next to the door.
Q On which side of the door?
A On the north side of the door.
Q In whose company was he?
The Court: Don't that building face south?
Mr. Foster: Q I suppose the entrance is at the corner?
A The entrance is at the corner.
Q The building faces south, but the entrance is at the corner of the two streets?
A Yes sir.
Q Corner of Desplaines and Lake streets?
A Yes sir, the door is northeast---it makes a northeast line.
Q That is, suppose that this book would represent the saloon, this would be south, the door would be right across this corner of the building, the southwest corner of the building?
A Yes sir.
Q That corner is cut off and the door enters there in that shape---you enter facing the northeast?
(No response.)
Q In whose company was Mr. Parsons at that time?
A I remember Mrs. Parsons was there and Mrs. Holmes I think.
Q Mrs. Holmes and Mrs. Parsons?
A Yes sir.
Q How many persons were in the saloon at that time?
A The saloon was, as I remember it, it was overcrowded. It was quite a crowd there.
Q It was crowded at that time?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you remember of having any conversation with any one from which you remember particularly the persons of these parties?
A I remember I spoke.
Q Don't tell what you said. Simply whether you had a talk with anybody which fixes in your mind the fact that you saw these parties?
A Yes sir, spoke with Mr. Allen about it
Q Who did you have that conversation with?
A I spoke with Mr. Whiting Allen about it.
Q That was with reference to Mr. Parsons, Mrs. Parsons--- or Mrs. Holmes?
A Yes sir.
Q Were they sitting or standing at that time?
A I think Mrs. Holmes was standing and Mrs. Parsons was sitting on the window, sitting right on the side of Mr? Parsons.
Q Was Mr. Parsons sitting or standing?
A I think he was sitting.
Q Where?
A On the window.
Q On the sill of the window?
A On the sill of the window, yes.
Q Now I will ask you whether or not if you know they remained there until the explosion of the bomb?
A When the explosion of the bomb occurred of course I remember of seeing them there.
Q You seen them there at the time?
A Because we heard--
Q Never mind the talk, anything you did you can tell?
A Yes, I seen them there.
Q What conversation you had is not proper. After the explosion of the bomb what did you and Mr. Allen do?
A There was a rush intomthe hall, and we made a move, we moved a few steps back to the rear. Then we remained standing for a few seconds looking, facing the door, but the rush was so, that the crowd was so great and the bullets I think were rattling on the walls, and we thought it would be better to leave the hall and get out.
Q Did you get out?
A Yes.
Q Who went with you?
A Mr. Allen.
Q What direction did you go?
A We went out the rear of the hall.
Q Did you return home with Allen or leave him there?
A No, sir, I went with Mr. Allen from the hall, went over to Fulton street and Jefferson, I think, and Jefferson street to Randolph on Randolph street we were looking for a while that minute for a telephone and Mr. Allen wanted to telephone down to the office of the Times about the occurrence of the
bomb, and send special help, and he proposed to me to have some special work for the Times. I told him I didn't want to just now. I thought it is better and safer for me to go home.
Q I don't care about that. Where did you leave Mr. Allen that night?
A On Randolph street.
Q At the time?
A Yes sir.
Q You went away and left him?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you have any conversation with Mr. Spies that night at the time that you were there for three or four minutes in the meeting?
A Yes, I had.
Q That was how long before you returned to Zepf's hall?
A It was before I came to Zepf's hall. It was on my going to Zepf's hall---I didn't know the meeting and became aware of the meeting coming to the corner---I saw the crowd and went up to see what it is.
Q Who was speaking at this time, at the time you had the conversation with Spies?
A Mr. Parsons was speaking.
Q At the time you had the conversation with Spies, where was Mr. Spies---was he standing or sitting?
A Mr. Spies was standing on the wagon.
Q At the wagon or on the wagon?
A On the wagon.
Cross Examination by
Mr. Grinnell.
Q How long have you been in this country?
A It is five years---it will be next August.
Q How long have you been in Chicago?
A In Chicago I think it is about two years, two years and a half, something like that.
Q What did you do when you first came to this country? where did you land, and what did you do there?
A I landed in New York.
Q How long did you stay in New York?
A I staid in New York for eight months, something like that.
Q What did you do there?
A In New York I was working---I lived in Brooklyn.
Q What did you do?
A I was a teacher.
Q Where?
A In Brooklyn.
Q What kind of a teacher, teacher in what?
A Teacher of the Russian language.
Q A private teacher to individuals that wanted to learn it?
A Yes sir.
Q Who was it you taught in Brooklyn there---Lpaesig?
A Yes.
Q Who is he?
A He is editor of the Brooklyn Frei Press.
Q A revolutionary paper?
A No sir, it is the same like the Frei Press here in Chicago.
Q Is not he a revolutionist?
A No sir, he is not.
Q Is not he a Russian reporter?
A No sir.
Q Is he a Russian?
A He is not a Russian.
Q You taught that man the Russian language?
A Yes sir.
Q You were there eight months?
A Yes sir.
Q Doing that all the time?
A All the time.
Q Where did you go then?
A Then I left Plaesig and went down south.
Q Where did you go to?
A In Little Rock.
Q How long did you live in Little Rock?
A lived in Little Rock for about half a year, I think.
Q What were you doing there?
A I was printer over there working for a paper, for the Arkansas Staats Zeitung.
Q How long did you work there?
A For half a year.
Q Where did you go then?
A Then I came to St. Louis
Q How long did you stay in St. Louis?
A I stayed in St. Louis for about three months.
Q What did you do there?
A In St. Louis I was looking for work and could not find it and left St. Louis and came to Chicago.
Q Wen did you come to Chicago?
A I came to Chicago in 1884, I think.
Q Came with a letter of introduction to Spies?
A No sir, not with a letter of introduction. I obtained my position down south through a letter of introduction of Mr. Spies.
Q Through a letter of introduction to Spies?
A Of Spies.
Q From Spies?
A Yes sir.
Q That was before you went south?
A Yes sir.
Q Were you in Chicago before you went south?
A No sir.
Q Where did you see Spies first?
A I did not see Spies first at all.
Q From what source did you get the letter of introduction?
A I know Spies by correspondence, because I and the editor Mr. Plaesig translated the book, and this book was sold to the Arbeiter Zeitung, was sold to Mr. Spies, and this is how I come to Know Mr. Spies.
Q What was that book?
A It was a romance.
Q A novel?
A A novel.
Q What was the name of it?
A The name is Vorilitze.
Q And the author?
A I don't know. I guess it is N. B. or N. H.--I don't remember.
Q A revolutionary novel?
A No sir, it was a novel describing---
Q I don't care to know?
A It was not a revolutionary novel.
Q You got a letter before you left New York from Spies of introduction to any one else south with whom you might visit?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you get that through the instrumentality of Herr Most?
A No sir.
Q Did you know Herr Most in New York?
A I have seen him, but I don't know him personally.
Q You know Justus Schwab?
A Yes, I know him.
Q Lived with him, didn't you?
A No sir. I didn't live
with him.
Q You had letters directed to his care?
A Yes.
Q In 1883?
A Yes sir.
Q In October?
A Yes, it may be.
Q When you came back to Chicago, you went directly to Spies when you got to Chicago a couple of years ago?
A Yes sir.
Q Got employment upon his paper?
A Not at once.
Q How long were you employed on that paper before the first day of May?
A For about a year and a half.
Q Then you were here for about a half a year without employment?
A I said I was.
Q How long were you here before you got employment when you came to Chicago?
A For half a year.
Q That makes it that you have been here a little over two years?
A Yes sir.
Q You have been reporter on the Arbeiter Zeitung about a year and a half before the first day of May?
A Yes sir.
Q You roomed with Balthasar Rau?
A Yes sir.
Q Were rooming with him after that haymarket massacre?
A Yes sir.
Q About how long have you been rooming with him?
A About four months.
Q Where did you live and room?
A 418 Larrabee.
Q 418 West Larrabee?
A Larrabee street.
Q What time was it you went down to that meeting from Zepf's hall?
A Which meeting?
Q When you were at Zepf's hall you and Allen walked down to the haymarket meeting?
A No sir, I didn't walk from Zepf's hall to the haymarket.
Q Where did you walk?
A When I came in I met Mr. Allen. I had a conversation and Mr. Allen left and I went down to the haymarket. I don't know where he went.
Q Did you see him again?
A I went upstairs to the meeting of the furniture workers. I came down and seen him again.
Q You saw Allen again?
A Yes.
Q Did you and he then walk up to the haymarket?
A No sir.
Q When was it you went up to the haymarket meeting, before or after you saw Allen the first time?
A Before I seen Allen the first time.
Q Did you go down there again?
A No sir.
Q Did not go down at all?
A Again I did not go.
Q At the time you did go you saw Spies on the wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q And heard Parsons speak?
A Yes sir.
Q How long did you stay there?
A For about two, three or four minutes.
Q You went back to Zepf's hall?
A Yes sir.
Q You went upstairs to the furnit re workers meeting?
A Yes sir.
Q How long were you then in Zepf's ball before you heard the bomb explode?
A I think it was about an hour, something more than an hour.
Q What were you doing in there a whole hour---I mean down stairs in the saloon?
A How long in the saloon before you heard the bomb explode?
A I was not all the time in the saloon.
Q Where were you?
A I was going upstairs to superintend the meeting, two or three times.
Q I will ask you when you came down last in the saloon, how long you were there before the bomb exploded?
A I was there I think it was a good half all hour.
Q Alone there were you all the time?
A Yes sir.
Q Where were you standing?
A First was standing near the counter.
Q That is, near the bar?
A Near the bar. Were you drinking there?
A Yes sir, we took a glass of beer.
Q How many times?
A One.
Q How long had you stopped there before you saw Parsons?
A I told you, half an hour.
Q That was half an hour before the bomb exploded?
A It was something about in the neighborhood of half an hour.
Q Did you see any of the other defendants there?
A I don't remember to have seen any other.
Q When you and Allen were talking together, how long had you been talking together right there in the center near the stove, you say?
A Yes.
Q Standing on the floor near the stove---that would be between the stove and the bar?
A Yes sir.
Q You were standing talking with Allen?
A Yes sir.
Q How long had you been standing there talking before you saw Mrs. Parsons?
A It was when Mrs. Parsons came into the hall, me and Allen were standing a little further than the stove---I suggested to Mr. Alen to introduce him.
Q Whom did you say that you would introduce him to?
A I suggested to introduce him to Mrs. Parsons.
Q Didn't you say Mr. Malcoff, you would introduce him to Mrs. Parsons?
A No, I understood I would introduce him to Mr. and Mrs. Parsons.
Q Did you point out to him Parsons?
A Yes, I pointed him out.
Q Was Parsons in plain sight of him?
A I think
Q Could you see him from where you stood?
A Yes sir.
Q He stood right by you?
Mr. Foster: I want the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Grinnell: Q Was Parsons in plain sight of him, yes or no?
A I think he was not in plain sight of him.
Q How far were you standing from Allen?
A I was standing near Allen, and the stove was before us. I was standing behind Allen.
Q Where was Parsons when you saw him?
A Parsons was standing on the other side of the stove, near the door, near the first table, there was a table near the first window.
Q How far was Parsons from his wife?
A I think they were sitting close together.
Q They were sitting there at the table, wern't they?
A Not the table on the north.
Q Were the two sitting on the north sill?
A Yes sir.
Q Which window sill? the one that faces on Lake strest?
A The one that face out on street.
Q That woud be then towards the west?
A It would be towards the west, and north from the door.
Q Could Allen see Mrs. Parsons?
A I think yes, he could see.
Q Could see her but not Parsons?
A Mrs. Parsons was sitting near towards on this side.
Q How long had Parsons been sitting there before the bomb exploded?
A It was about from five to ten minutes.
Q Did you go up and speak to either of them?
A I did not go up and speak to them.
Q Did Allen go up and speak either of them?
A No sir.
Q Did Allen tell you that he knew them?
A He did not
tell me.
Q He didn't say anything about that?
A He said he didn't care to be introduced.
Q Did he say whether he knew them or not, whether he seen them before?
A He didn't say anything about it.
Q Do you know from conversation then or before whether he did in fact know them by sight?
A I think he didn't know.
Q Did not know them by sight?
A He did not know them by sight, because I made the suggestion.
Q You suggested you woud introduce them to him?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know whether or not he knew them by sight?
A I think he did not know them.
Q What happened as soon as the bomb exploded?
A As soon as the bomb exploded we made a step east, made a few steps towards the rear, and then we waited for a few seconds. I asked Mr. Allen "what is it?" and Mr. Allen thought it was a Gatling gun, something like that--it sounded like a Gatling gun.
Q I am not asking you what the conversation was. I ask you what you did--tell what happened?
A A few seconds after that shooting began and the crowd came.
Q Was the door closed?
A The crowd came into the hall.
Q A good many came?
A Yes.
Q A good many before?
A Yes sir.
Q They rushed through the saloon and out the back door?
A We run ourselves when the crowd came.
Q Rushed out the back door?
A Yes sir.
Q Was not that door closed by the proprietor to stop the crowd from coming in---do you remmber that?
A I don't remember having seen it.
Q You got out the door?
A Yes.
Q What street did you go around on?
A We stood in the rear--there is a small hallway.
Q Stood in the doorway?
A Stood in the door for about a minute or a minute and a half.
Q You were pretty scared from the time you got out doors and got up off onto some street?
A I was not very scared.
Q Were not you a good deal demoralized and scared?
A There was a general demoralization in my opinion.
Q And you partook of it?
A Yes sir.
Q At the time that Allen and you went out the back door, where did you go to first?
A I went on Desplaines up to Fulton.
Q Here is the door goes into Zepf's hall out on the corner (indicating on diagram)?
A Here is the door.
Q I am talking about where you stood when you saw Parsons ---that is the doorway---that is the door right there--where did Parsons sit?
A Parsons sat here.
Q He sat not on the Desplaines street side but on the
Lake street side---this is the Desplaines street front and this is the Lake street front (indicating)?
A You must explain it to me, I havn't seen it.
Q You know how the doorway is there?
A Where is Lake street?
Q This is Lake street?
A And Desplaines.
Q That is Desplaines?
A Parsons stood here at that side of the door (indicating).
Q Where did you stand?
A Here was the bar.
Q Here is the bar away over here?
A This all is the saloon.
Q Yes.
A Then I understand it. This is the entrance into the saloon.
Q That is what I told you.
A I could not say---I thought this was the saloon--this is the saloon, this is the bar, this is the stove--here is the place where Parsons sat.
Q In the window?
A Here near to the door, close to the door and the window. and Mr. Allen first was standing here at this end, and the counter was standing here. Then when Mr. Parsons and Mrs. Parsons came in I told him---
Q (Interrupting) Never mind what you told him.
A I introduced him and we moved over here and remained standing here. I was standing on this side, and Mr. Allen was standing here.
Q Behind the stove?
A This was our position.
Q Allen was behind the stove?
A Yes.
Q Where was Mrs. Parsons sitting?
A Mrs. Parsons was
sitting here.
Q Right there also?
A Yes sir.
Q Were not they both sitting up towards the table?
A No sir.
Q Where was Mrs. Holmes?
A Is this the window?
Q Yes sir.
A Well, then---
Q Where was Mrs. Holmes sitting?
A She was sitting at the table.
Q Mr. and Mrs. Parsons were sitting towards the door?
A Sitting on the window.
Q How far from Mrs. Holmes?
A Near the table---it was close to the window.
Q That is close to the window there?
A Yes sir.
Q Mrs. Holmes sat on the table?
A I think, I can't tell you exactly, but I think so.
Q Who else came in with them?
A I don't remember who just came in.
Q You saw those three?
A I saw those three.
Q You knew those three?
A Yes sir.
Q Mrs. Holmes worked on the Arbeiter Zeitung or the Alarm?
A She did not work.
Q Wasn't she a correspondent or a writer for those two papers---you knew her?
A I knew her, yes.
Q Now tell me how many people there were in that saloon when you saw Parsons coming in between the stove and the window and the door?
A I can't remember.
Q About how many was there, ten, fifteen or twenty?
A I can't remember exactly. I think it was about ten--- about ten men were sta ding scattered.
Q Didn't you then at that time say to Mr. Allen, "there is Mrs. Parsons, let me introduce you to her", or words to that effect?
A Yes, I told him.
Q Is that all you said?
A I told him I would introduce him to Mr. and Mrs. Parsons.
Q Did you say Mr. and Mrs. Parsons?
A I said it.
Q You said those two words?
A Those two words.
Q Did you not say and say only that you would introduce him to Mrs. Parsons?
A I told him I would introduce him to Mr. and Mrs. Parsons.
Q When Parsons came in, when you did see him, he came in and sat right down there at that window?
A Not right---
Q Where did he go to first?
A He came in and I remember he shook hands with somebody---I don't remember whom.
Q Where?
A Right there at the table.
Q Right there at the first table, that is where Mrs. Holmes and Mrs. Parsons sat down?
A Yes.
Q Did they sit on the window sill?
A Yes, I think so.
Q Except Mrs. Holmes---where did she sit down?
A She was sitting there on the table or chair--I don't know exactly ---I don't remember.
Q When did you leave Russia?
A I left Russia in 1882.
Q Have you talked with Allen about this matter since?
A About it.
Q About the proposed introduction to Mr. and Mrs. Parsons?
A Yes sir, I have talked with him about it.
Q Your bedroom was searched, was it not?
A Yes sir.
Q Were there arms found there any of them belonging to you?
Objected to: objection withdrawn.
A No sir.
Q Guns or bayonets?
A No sir.
Q Where did you live before you lived at 418 Larrabee street? where you lived on the first of May with Rau?
A I lived on Sedgwick street.
Q Where?
A At 620 Sedgwick street.
Q How long did you live there?
A I lived there I think for about two months or something like that.
Q Who roomed with you then?
A I roomed in the same house Rau lived.
Q Where did you live before you lived at 620 Sedgwick?
A Before I lived at 620 Sedgwick, I had a room with Mr. Schwab.
Q One of the defendants?
A Yes sir.
Q How long did you live with Schwab?
A I lived with Schwab for about four months.
Q Where is that?
A I don't remember the name of the
street. It is a little street over there near North Avenue.
Q You are a stockholder in the Alarm, arn't you?
A No sir.
Q Wern't you?
A No sir.
Q Didn't you belong to the Alarm Press Society?
A I did not belong.
Q Didn't you contributemoney towards it?
A It may be that I contributed. Yes.
Q Did you not contribute to the Alarm some money?
A I contributed once I remember.
Q When?
Objected to as not proper cross examination.
The Court: The bias and sympathies of the witness are admissible in cross examination.
Mr. Black: I don't think there is any sympathy in subscribing for a paper. I ask that it be stopped now.
The Court: If they have a right at all---
Mr. Black: I don't think they ave a right at all. I think there are limits to things of that sort.
The Court: If they have a right to the matter at all they have a right to the whole detail.
Mr. Black: My idea is they have no right to it.
The Court: I think if he has an interest it can be shown.
Mr. Grinnell: Q You are a member of the Alarm Press Society and contributed two dollars for it.
Mr. Black: Interested in what?
The Court: Interested in the sentiments disseminated by the paper.
Exception by defendants.
Mr. Grinnell: You say you did contribute something---when was it?
A I think it was somewhere this winter.
Q Was not it a year ago?
A A year ago---I don't remember when I contributed.
Q How much?
A Two dollars.
Q You were a member of the nihilistic organization before you left Russia, were you not?
A No sir.
Q You and your brother?
A No sir.
Q Did not your brother leave Russia because he was a member of some nihilistic organization?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q Did you yourself belong to any Russian nihilistic organization?
A I did not belong to any nihilistic organization in Russia.
Q Were you a nihilist in Russia?
A I would like to know what you understand by nihilist?
Q I will ask you to answer the question. Were you a nihilist in Russia?
A I was not.
Q Are not you here in this country as the agent of the nihilists in Russia?
A No sir---I ain't the agent of any society in Russia.
Q Nor the agent of any socity in Russia?
A I am not any agent of any society in Russia.
Q Do you know Mr. Hardy reporter on the Tomes?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you ever tell him that you were a Russian nihilist?
A I never told him so. They were calling me so because I was a Russian--that was all. The reporters were calling me a nihilist because I was a Russian---that is all.
Q You are in no way conected with any revolutionary society?
A No sir.
Q Is that your letter and that your hand-writing? (shows witness letter)
A Yes, it is mine.
Q Look at the signature at the bottom and see if that is your signature?
A Yes sir.
Q Whom did you write that to, whom did you send it to?
A I don't remember.
Mr. Foster: Let us see it.
The Court: They have a right to see it before you ask any more questions.
Mr. Grinnell: I won't ask any more questions about it.
Q What paper are you working on now?
A I am working for a paper in Moscow, Russia.
Q What is the name of it?
A The name you want to see.
Q No. I can't read Russian?
A The name is the Moscow Gazette.
Q Did you ever have any conversation with Allen about nihilism, Allen the reporter that was standing with you in the hall that night?
Objected to as incompetent and improper cross examination.
The Court: I don't see how that is admissible. If you object to it I think the objection is properly taken.
Mr. Foster: We do object.
Mr. Grinnell: I will ask you whether or not you ever told Allen you were a nihilist?
Objected to.
A I never---
Mr. Ingham: Is not it competent in this case; this man being a witness for the defense, to show that he is not only connected with these defendants now, but before be came to this country he was a nihilist.
The Court: I have not put any limits upon your asking what his own connections are.
Mr. Grinnell: I want the foundation and attempt to prove by others that he said he was.
Mr. Ingham: The question whether he is a nihilist or not, or whether he came on propaganda from the nihilists is certainly not collateral.
The Court: It don't relate to the question here, the charge against these defendants; it only affects him as a witness.
Mr. Ingham: That is the reason it is material.
Mr. Salomon: We desire to except to the remarks of the
States Attorey that he has laid the foundation for impeachment for saying that he was. I don't think that is a proper remark because he is bound by the answer of the witness when he asks a question of that kind.
The Court: There is no question in there. Of course you may have an exception.
Mr. Grinnell: The only point about it is whether I have the right to ask a witness the specific question whether he did not say to either of these witnesses, or both of them, say to them that he had been a Russian nihilist or was a Russian nihilist. Now, I understand the court to rule I have no right to that.
The Court: I don't think you have.
Mr. Foster: Will you give me that little book and letter.
Mr. Grinnell: I propose to have it translated.
The Court: If you intend to use it, it must be used now, while the witness is here.
Mr. Grinnell: Can we not have the privilege after this letter is translated of recalling this witness just as they suggested with Seliger?
The Court: This witness is not so sure of being accessible as Seliger.
Mr. Foster: They had Seliger locked up.
The Court: I made a departure from the rule in your favor as to Seliger, but in this instance it is not so certain
that the witness will be here when they want to introduce him.
Mr. Foster: We cannot object to the introduction of the letter, but the gentleman has identified it, and now we have a right on cross examination to ask the witness in regard to it, and we want the gentleman to give us the letter.
Mr. Grinnell: There is no way that the prosecution can know what witnesses they intend to introduce. I knew nothing about this witness or the fact that they would introduce him.
The Court: I have ruled that if they are going to use the letter they can use it now.
Mr. Foster: Will you allow me to have the pass book?
Mr. Grinnell: The pass book has not been referred to in any shape or manner.
The Court: What is there about the pass book?
Mr. Foster: He took up the pass book and read from it and wanted to know if you did not do this and if you did not donate fifty two dollars to the Alarm?
Mr. Ingham: Never said a word about fifty two dollars.
Mr. Grinnell: Nothing of the kind.
The Court: Where he got the information from that the question was asked I don't know anything about. There was no reference to any book.
Mr. Foster: It is all right if that is the way these gentlemen want to destroy the lives of these eight men by taking our property and say that we shall not see the contents
of our own books when they bring them in court and flaunt them before the jury---it is time we knew it, that is all.
Mr. Grinnell: I have made no reference whatever to any memorandum.
The Court: I have not heard any allusion to anything in writig, that is which could be supposed to be here in court except that letter.
Mr. Grinnell: I will say this that if this book will be allowed to be admitted in evidence after I present it to them, they shall have it.
Mr. Foster: That is a remarkable proposition.
The Court: Whenever there is any question presented to me I will try to decide it.
Mr. Grinnell: I don't propose to have them see the book unless it goes in evidence.
Mr. Black: What I want to say is this. A number of articles have been read from the Alarm and also translations from the Arbeiter. We want an opportunity before we close our proof of examining those papers for the purpose of determining whether or not we desire any additional articles from the same paper or any additional translations to go before the jury?
Mr. Grinnell: You need not mention that to the court. Make the application to me, and it shall be granted.
Redirect
Mr. Foster.
Q You stated you were a correspondent of the Moscow Gazette. Is this a copy of the paper, an illustrated paper?
A Yes sir.
Q In the shape of a journal?
A There is a supplement to the daily paper. In this issue there is an article of mine.
Q On what subject?
Objected to.
Q When you were working in Brooklyn, where did you live, in Brooklyn or in New York?
A In Brooklyn.
Q Were you in New York frequently?
A Yes, I used to go over to New York.
Q Herr Most lives in New York, does he not, and publishes a paper there?
A I understood so.
Q During the time you lived there, and were about New York and Brooklyn you say you seen him?
A I have seen him I think at a meeting, seen him at a meeting in New York.
Q You never spoke with him?
A I did not speak with him.
Q Had no acquaintance with him?
A No.
Q When you saw Mr. and Mrs. Parsons first that night at Zepf's hall, were they sittig on the window sill?
A I saw them first when they came into the hall. When I saw them first they came into the hall and then they sat down at the window.
Q Did you see Mrs. Holmes come in the hall or was she
already in there?
A She came in with Mrs. Parsons.
Q Do you remember as a matter of fact whether Mr. Parsons came in afterwards, a little after?
A He came in a little after.
Q Two ladies came in first, and then a little af er Mr. Parsons came in?
A Yes, a little after, just a second, about a second after that.
Q Do you know whether Mr. Parsons retained that seat all the time, during the time that you were in there before the explosion of the bomb?
A Yes, during the time that I was there, the time until I left the hall, until I began to run. I have seen him sitting there.
Q You didn't observe him at any other place?
A I did not observe him any more.
Q You didn't observe him at any other place in the hall, except at that window?
A Yes.
Mr. Grinnell: Q Parsons was sitting there when you started to run?
A Yes sir.
Q He was sitting there when the bomb exploded?
A He was sitting there when the bomb exploded.
Q On the window sill?
A On the window sill.
Q Mrs. Parsons right by him or near him?
A Right by him.
Q Mrs. Holmes right there at the table?
A At the table, I think, yes sir.
Q I want to ask to what this letter you refer to is directed, to Mr. Editor---what paper?
A I don't know.
Objected to.
The Court: Before you can ask any questions further than the handwriting I think you will have to let them see it.
Mr. Foster: Q Are you near-sighted?
A Yes sir.
Q Can you see at a distance?
A Well, yes, with the spectacles I can see very well.
Mr. Foster: There is no objection to this letter.
Mr. Grinnell: Q To whom was this letter directed?
A I don't know which letter it is. I did not write the letter.
(The letter was here handed to the witness.)
The Witness: Well, I think it was directed to Mr. Spies.
Q That was before you came to Chicago?
A Yes sir, it was directed I think from Brooklyn.
Mr. Grinnell: We offer that and this translation in evidence, or the translation in evidence.
The Court: Let Mr. Gauss state whether that is a translation of the letter.
Mr. Gauss: It is a correct trasalation of the original.
The Court: Read it then.
Mr. Gauss: (Reads) "Dear Mr. Editor. The articles which I send you herewith, you may read, put them into proper form and if you consider them competent reprint them in
one of your papers. I have also nearly completed a very interesting article treating of the secret revolutionary societies of Russia in the so-called Dekabrists; that is of the years 1820 to 1830. I have also another one in my thoughts, but being out of work, and having no dwelling place, it is entirely impossible to give even a few hours daily to writing. You see I am writing in German, which I can do, i. e. I translate every sentence word by word from the Russian. You have in this connection the not easy task to set the corrupted German right. I hope you will pardon me for this. At the time I came over here I did not understand one German word. Thanks to Wassilissa which I translated with the help of dictionaries I have learned this little. For your letter I am very thankful to you. I would of course follow your accommodating invitation and would have left New York long ago, but unfortunately it does not depend on me. I am a proletarian in the fullest sense of the word, and a proletarian is not favored to put his thoughts, (his ideas, it may be rendered) into execution. Respectfully, Michael Malcoff. Care of J. H. Schwab, 50 1st street, New York. Written on the 22nd of October, 1883."
Mr. Grinnell: Q Were you living with Schwab in New York when you wrote that letter?
Objected to.
Mr. Zeisler: This is J. H. Schwab, not Justice Schwab.
Mr. Grinnell: Let us find out.
Q You received your letters at that time in care of J. H. Schwab?
A Yes sir.
Q That is 50th street, New York?
A 50th street, New York.
Q Were you living there?
A I was not living there.
I knew the man, because---
Q Never mind because. You knew him and received your mail at his place?
A I know him, yes.
Q Was J. H. Schwab---
Mr. Black: That is No. 50, First street, New York.
Mr. Grinnell: Q Is that right?
The Witness: Yes sir.
Q Is J. H. Schwab Justus Schwab?
A Yes sir.
Q Justus Schwab is one of the socialistic leaders in New York, is he not?
A I don't know about it.
Q You don't know that Justus Schwab is one of the socialistic leaders of New York?
A I don't know about it. I knew him as a person---I didn't know him as a socialist.
Q He runs a paper in New York, don't he?
A No sir.
Q Has not he a paper that he is connected with?
A I don't know.
Q He had a saloon in New York?
A He had a saloon.
Mr. Foster: Q Now, I want to know what you mean, what you intended to mean and what you mean, by the use of the word "proletarian in the fullest sense of the word."
Objected to.
The Court: What he means by the word proletarian, I think is admissible. It is not English.
Mr. Foster: Yes, it is a Websterian word.
Mr. Grinnell: It is a well defined word.
Mr. Foster: What is proletarian---what do you mean by it in that letter?
A I understood it a man without means, without support.
Q A man without means or support?
A Yes sir.
Q Webster calls it one of the meaner classes.
A Proletarian is so understood in the French language. I don't know how it is understood in English.
Q It had no reference to socialistic proclivities or doctrines?
A No sir, it has none.
Q Now, this man Schwab that this letter was sent in care of---you say at that time you were without means?
A Yes.
Q You had no home there?
A No sir.
Q What was the business of Mr. Schwab?
A At that time?
Q Yes sir.
A His house was a public place, was a public place and it was a saloon.
Q And a restaurant?
A And a restaurant, yes sir.
Q You were in the habit of going there?
A I used to go over there to inquire about letters---that was the only thing.
Q It was customary on the part of people who knew Schwab.
and had no homes, to have their mail sent to his care?
A Yes sir.
Q And would call for them and get them?
A Yes sir.
Q That is the reason you had your mail sent to Mr. Schwab?
A Yes.
Mr. Ingham: Q You say that the word proletarian, as you use it, meant simply a poor man?
A Yes.
Q Is there no other word in German you could use to express that idea?
Objected to as not material.
Q I will ask you if the word proletarian as used by you, was not used in the sense in which socialists always used it when they divide society into two classes, the Bourgeoise and the proletarian, and if you did not use it in that sense when you wrote it?
A No sir, I did not.
Q You swear you did not?
A I swear.
Q But simply understood it in the sense of being a poor man?
A Yes.
Q You said it was a French word, did you not?
A Yes.
Q It is not a Russian word?
A It is used in the Russian language.
Q Is it a German word?
A It is used in the German.
Q It is used in English, also?
A Yes sir.
Q Always used in every language by socialists, no matter
what race they belong to or what language they speak?
A It is used by political economists.
Q Is not it used by political economists who are socialists?
A By political economists no matter of what school.
Q Are the two words which they use Bourgeoise and proletarian, used to distinguish the two classes of society?
Mr. Foster: He has given the definition that corresponds with Webster and Worcester. Has he got to give a definition as somebody uses it?
The Court: The sense in which the writer used it is the only thing admissible. Whether he misused it or used it properly makes no difference. The only question here is, what sense he used it.