Direct examination by Mr. Foster. Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al.

Attended a Carpenters' Union meeting at Timmerhoff's Hall where George Engel gave a speech. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Carpenters' Union (vol.L 533), Engel, George (vol.L 533), weapons and explosives (vol.L 534), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.L 537), eight-hour movement (vol.L 538).

A WITNESS CALLED AND SWORN ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS WAS EXAMINED IN CHIEF BY MR. FOSTER AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

Q WHAT IS YOUR NAME?

A FREDERICK C. GROH.

Q WHERE DO YOU LIVE?

A 257 WEST DIVISION.

Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU RESIDED IN CHICAGO?

A I RESIDED HERE SINCE LAST JANUARY, A YEAR AGO.

Q WHAT IS YOUR BUSINESS?

A CARPENTER.

Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN AMERICA?

A FIVE YEARS.

Q ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL WORKINGMEN'S ASSOCIATION?

A NO, I AM A MEMBER OF THE INDEPENDENT CARPENTERS' UNION.

Q I WILL ASK YOU IF YOU KNOW MR. ENGEL, ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS?

A I DON'T RECOLLECT HIM.

Q DO YOU KNOW HIM BY SIGHT?

A I KNOW HIM NOW, BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN HIM ONCE BEFORE.

Q WHERE WAS IT YOU SAW HIM?

A IT WAS IN OUR HALL, IN OUR UNION HALL, 703 MILWAUKEE AVE.

Q DO YOU KNOW MR. WEINECKE? A MEMBER OF THE POLICE FORCE?

A I KNOW HIM BY FACE, BY SIGHT.

Q I WILL ASK YOU IF IN THE MEETING YOU HAVE REFERRED TO, WHETHER MR. ENGEL SPOKE?

A YES, HE DID.

Q WAS MR. WEINECKE THERE?

A I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM. I KNOW MR. WEINECKE SINCE AFTER THE 4TH OF MAY.

Q WAS MR. WEINECKE ON THE POLICE FORCE AT THE TIME MR. ENGEL SPOKE AT THAT MEETING?

A I DON'T KNOW.

Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER HE IS ON THE FORCE NOW OR NOT?

A YES HE IS ON THE FORCE NOW.

Q DO YOU REMEMBER MR. ENGEL'S SPEECH OR ANY PART OF IT?

A WELL, YES.

Q NOW, I WILL ASK YOU WHAT MR. ENGEL SAID IF ANYTHING IN REGARD TO BUYING PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS BY MEMBERS OF THE ASSOCIATION AND SAVING MONEY FOR THAT PURPOSE?

THE COURT: THERE MIGHT BE NO MEANS OF IDENTIFYING IT, IF IT WAS THE SAME MEETING. WEINECKE IS THE POLICEMAN THAT WAS HERE, THE ONE THAT JOINED THE POLICE ON THE 20TH OF APRIL?

MR. FOSTER: YES SIR.

THE COURT: HE DID NOT FIX THE DATE OF THE MEETING?

MR. FOSTER: NO SIR, HE SAID HE COULD NOT FIX THE DATE. WE WILL SHOW THAT THERE WAS BUT ONE MEETING THERE AT WHICH MR. ENGEL SPOKE.

Q DID WEINECKE FIX THE PLACE?

MR. FOSTER: YES, HE FIXED THE PLACE.

THE COURT: WHAT PLACE DID HE SAY?

MR. FOSTER: HIS TESTIMONY ON THAT SUBJECT WAS THIS: "DID YOU EVER SEE ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS? A YES SIR. WHICH ONE? EBGEL. WHERE? 703 MILWAUKEE. DID YOU EVER HEAR HIM MAKE A SPEECH--WHAT

DID HE SAY? OBJECTED TO. WHEN WAS IT? SOME PART OF FEBRUARY, THIS LAST FEBRUARY, 1886.

THE COURT: Q IS THAT THE PLACE WHERE YOU WERE AT THE MEETING 703 MILWAUKEE AVE.?

A YES SIR.

MR. BLACK: IT SAYS FURTHER THAT IT WAS A MEETING IN THE HALL AND THAT OTHER PEOPLE WERE THERE.

THE COURT: Q WHEN WAS THE MEETING YOU REFER TO?

A I REFER TO THE MEETING IN THE MONTH OF APRIL-- I DON'T RECOLLECT NOW---IT WAS EITHER THE FIRST OR SECOND SUNDAY IN APRIL THAT HE SPOKE IN OUR HALL.

MR. FOSTER%: Q WAS THERE EVER MORE THAN ONE MEETING IN THAT HAIL AT WHICH MR. ENGEL SPOKE?

A MR. ENGEL SPOKE ONLY ONCE THERE IN THAT HALL.

Q HAVE YOU ATTENDED ALL THE MEETINGS THERE?

A YES SIR, I ATTENDED ALL THE MEETINGS THERE.

Q DID YOU LIVE NEAR THERE?

A YES.

Q HOW FAR DID YOU LIVE FROM THIS HALL?

A I LIVED ABOUT FIVE OR SIX BLOCKS.

Q YOU ATTENDED ALL THE MEETINGS YOURSELF THAT HAVE BEEN HELD IN THAT HALL THIS YEAR?

MR. GRINNELL: HE CAN TELL ALL THE MEETINGS HE ATTENDED. BUT HE CAN'T TELL WHETHER HE ATTENDED ALL THE MEETINGS THAT WERE HELD IN THAT HALL.

MR. FOSTER: Q HOW OFTEN DID CARPENTERS' UNION HOLD MEETINGS IN

THAT HALL?

A HELD MASS MEETINGS EVERY SUNDAY, OPEN MEETINGS I MEAN AND UNION MEETINGS THERE THURSDAY.

MR. BLACK: ON CROSS EXAMINATION A FURTHER PUN WAS BROUGHT OUT THAT THIS MEETING WAS A PUBLIC MEETING SUNDAY AFTERNOON.

THE COURT: HAVE YOU ATTENDED ALL OF THE SUNDAY MEETINGS THERE DURING THE LAST WINTER AND SPRING?

A WE ONLY HAD FOUR OR FIVE THERE, AND I WAS THERE ABOUT EVERY TIME.

Q WERE YOU THERE EVERY TIME? DO YOU KNOW WHETHER YOU WENT TO EVERY ONE THAT WAS HELD ON SUNDAY?

A THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ANOTHER MEETING THERE THAT I WAS NOT HERE, BUT I WAS IN EVERY CARPENTERS' MEETING.

MR. FOSTER: Q YOU WERE IN EVERY CARPENTERS' MEETING THAT WAS HELD ON SUNDAY AFTER NOON?

A YES SIR.

THE COURT: I THINK IF THIS WITNESS SAW ENGEL AND HEARD ENGEL MAKE A SPEECH ON THE SUNDAY AFTERNOON AT THAT HALL DURING THE WINTER OR SPRING OF THIS YEAR, THEN WHETHER HE HEARD ANY ONE SAY ANYTHING ABOUT REVOLVERS IS ADMISSIBLE, BECAUSE THERE IS NO POSITIVE WAY BY WHICH IF EITHER OF THE WITNESSES DID NOT HAVE THE DATE RIGHT, ALTHOUGH THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME MEETING, IDENTIFYING IT, UNLESS SOME ONE WHO HAD ATTENDED EVERY MEETING COULD SAY THAT ENGEL ONLY MADE ONE SPEECH. HE MAY TELL WHETHER HE HEARD ENGEL SAY ANYTHING ABOUT REVOLVERS--THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO GET AT.

MR. FOSTER: YES SIR.

Q WHAT DID MR. ENGEL SAY IF ANYTHING IN REGARD TO SAVING MONEY TO BUY REVOLVERS?

A I DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

Q WHAT DID HE SAY IF ANYTHING IN REGARD TO HAVING ALL WORKINGMEN JOIN THE BANKS OR JOIN THE SOCIETY, AND SAVE SO MUCH MONEY TO BUY REVOLVERS, IF ANYTHING?

A WELL, HE SAID THAT MUCH, THAT HE WANTED ALL WORKING MEN TO JOIN THE UNION, AND HE INVITED THEM TO JOIN THE UNION AND I DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT BUYING REVOLVERS, OR SAVING MONEY TO BUY REVOLVERS.

Q YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE ATTENDED ALL THE MEETINGS OF THE CARPENTERS' UNION THAT WAS HELD AT THAT HALL?

A YES.

Q AND YOU HEARD MR. ENGEL MAKE BUT ONE SPEECH?

A YES.

"I WILL ASK YOU WHETHER HE USED THIS LANGUAGE-DID MR. ENGEL SAY: "WE WANT EVERY ONE TO COME IN WHOM HE COULD GET TO JOIN, THAT EVERY ONE WAS INVITED AND WAS REQUESTED TO SAVE UP THREE OR FOUR DOLLARS TO BUY A REVOLVER---THAT WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR TO SHOOT POLICEMEN DOWN--DID MR. ENGEL SAY THAT?

A I RECOLLECT THAT MUCH. HE SAID HE WANTED EVERY BODY TO COME IN AND JOIN THE UNION, BUT I DID NOT HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT TO SAVE TWO OR THREE DOLLARS TO BUY A REVOLVER.

Q DID YOU HEAR MR. ENGEL IN THAT SPEECH SAY ANYTHING ABOUT GETTING REVOLVERS TO SHOOT POLICEMEN DOWN WITH?

A NO SIR, I DID NOT.

Q NOT AT ANY TIME?

A NO SIR.

Q WHAT WAS THE ORGANITARION TO WHICH YOUR BELONGED?

A INDEPENDANT CARPENTERS' UNION.

Q WHERE DID THAT UNION MEET?

A 703 MILWAUKEE AVE.

Q WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT HALL?

A TIMMERHOFF'S HALL.

Q YOU MET THERE HOW OFTER?

A EVERY THURSDAY.

Q DID ENGEL MAKE A SPEECH THERE BY INVITATION OF THE UNION?

A NOT BY INVITATION OF THE MEETING. WE HELD MASS METTING BEFORE THE FIRST OF MAY. WE WANTED EVERY ONE TO JOIN THE UNION, THE CARPENTERS' UNION-- SO WE INVITED OJCE ENGEL, THAT IS ONE MAN OF OUR UNION HE INVITED HIM TO GIVE A SPEECH ON SUNDAY IN OPEN MASS MEETING. THERE WAS SIGN OUTSIDE THE DOOR INVITING EVERYBODY TO COME IN AND HEAR A SPEECH, SO ENGEL CAME THERE AND MADE A SPEECH

Q WHAT POSITION DID YOU OCCUPY IN THAT CARPENTERS' UNION?

A I AM RECORDING SECRETARY.

Q DID ENGEL SPEAK ENGLISH OR GERMAN?

A GERMAN.

Q DID YOU HEAR THE WHOLE OF THE SPEECH?

A YES SIR, I GUESS I DID.

Q WHAT TIME OF DAY WAS IT?

A IN THE AFTERNOON.

Q IT WAS IN THE AFTERNOON?

A YES.

Q DID YOU EVER HEAR ENGEL MAKE ANY OTHER SPEECH?

A NO SIR, I DID NOT.

Q DID YOU OCCUPY THAT HALL EVERY SUNDAY, YOUR UNION?

A FOR FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS, I GUESS, FOUR OR FIVE SUNDAYS.

Q IN SUCCESSION?

A YES SIR.

Q BEFORE WHEN?

A BEFORE THE 1ST OF MAY.

Q EVER OCCUPY IT IN FEBRUARY ON SUNDAY?

A NO, I GUESS NOT.

Q OR AT ANY OTHER TIME THAN IN APRIL?

A NO SIR, MAYBE THAT WAS TWO SUNDAYS IN MARCH,--MAYBE THREE SUNDAYS IN APRIL-- I DON'T RECOLLECT NOW.

Q YOU SAY YOUR BUSINESS IS CARPENTER?

A YES.

Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED HERE IN THE CITY?

A SINCE ABOUT A YEAR AND SEVEN MONTHS.

Q WHERE DID YOU LIVE BEFORE COMING HERE?

A I LIVED FURTHER SOUTH FROM THERE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

Q HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE IN THE SOUTH?

A WAS THERE THE WHOLE WINTER,

Q HOW LONG IN MICHIGAN?

A WAS THERE ABOUT 2 YEARS, A LITTLE OVER THAT.

Q BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY ABOUT 5 YEARS?

A YES.