Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Zeisler. Cross examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Attended the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.L 399), Spies, August (vol.L 399), Fielden, Samuel (vol.L 399), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.L 400), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.L 400), Zepf's Hall (vol.L 398), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.L 400), eight-hour movement (vol.L 400), medical care and wounds (vol.L 410).
Testimony of Konrad Messer, 1886 Aug. 4.
Volume L, 398-412, 15 p.
Messer, Konrad.
Cabinetmaker; German immigrant.
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[Image, Volume L, Page 398]
August 4th, 1886.10 A.M.
Court met pursuant to adjournment.
KONRAD MESSER,
a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. ZEISLER, and testified as follows:
Q What is your full name?
A. Konrad Messer.
Q Where do you live?
A. 200 West Twelfth Street.
Q What is your trade?
A I am a cabinet maker.
Q Where were you on the night of May 4th?
A I was in Zepf's Hall.
Q What time?
A. I went there about eight o'clock. I went back to go home about, I guess, a quarter to ten.
Q Now, were you at the haymarket meeting during that time?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you leave there?
A. I guess it was ten minutes to ten or quarter to ten---I can't say exactly what time it was.
Q Did you see the police come to the ground?
A I didn't see the police come.
Q Did you see them after they had arrived there??
A. Yes sir.
Q Where were you standing at that time?
A Right by the wagon.
Q Do you remember Crane's Alley?
A. I don't know Crane's alley.
Q The alley south of Crane's building, on the east side of the street, do you remember that?
A. Yes sir.
Q Where with reference to that alley, did the wagon stand from
which the speaking was going on?
A I don't know what it means ---reference.
Q Where was the wagon, was it south or north of the alley?
THE COURT: Everybody knows that. He says he was right where the wagon was. Which part of the wagon?
THE WITNESS: South east corner.
Mr. ZEISLER. Q. You were near the south east corner?
A Yes sir.
Q You say you were there after the police had arrived?
A Yes sir.
Q How near to you was the front rank of the police?
A I guess about six or eight or ten steps.
Q Six or eight feet?
A. No, steps.
Q Steps?
A. Yes sir.
Q How far from the southwest corner of the wagon did you stand?
A. About three steps.
Q Who was on the wagon at the time the police arrived there?
A I don't know them fellows---I only know Mr. Fielden and Mr. Spies.
Q You say you know them?
A. Yes.
Q Did you recognize Mr. Fielden and Mr. Spies on the wagon at the time the police came?
A. Yes sir.
Q WHICH IS MR. SPIES?
A THAT GENTLEMAN OVER HERE |POINTING|.
Q WHICH IS MR. FIELDEN?
A THE GENTLEMAN OVER HERE |POINTING|.
Q WITH THE WHISKERS?
A YES SIR.
Q DID YOU HEAR ANYBODY TALK THERE IN A LOUD TONE OF VOICE?
A NO SIR.
Q DID YOU HEAR ANY OF THE POLICEMEN THERE, THE CAPTAIN?
A YES SIR.
Q WHAT DID HE SAY, IF YOU REMEMBER?
A I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID, HE SAID, "IN THE NAME OF THE LAW OF THE UNITED STATES, AND THE STATE OF ILLINOIS"---I CAN'T SAY THE WORDS---HE WANTS THAT MEETING TO GO OUT TOGETHER.
Q WHAT IF ANYTHING DID MR. FIELDEN SAY TO THAT?
A MR. FIELDEN SAID "IT IS A PEACEABLE MEETING.'
Q DID HE SAY THAT IN A LOUD TONE OF VOICE?
A NOT SO VERY LOUD.
Q WHOM DID HE SAY THAT TO?
A WHEN HE WENT DOWN FROM THE WAGON.
Q DID YOU HEAR THE EXPLOSION OF THE BOMB?
A YES, I DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS A BOMB. IN MY MEANING I THINK IT WAS FROM THE PISTOL FROM REVOLVER----I COULDAN'T SAY IF IT IS A BOMB OR WHAT IT IS. I NEVER HEAR A BOMB.
Q AT THE TIME THAT YOU HEARD THE NOISE, WHATEVER IT MAY HAVE BEEN, WHERE WAS MR. FIELDEN?
A HE WAS DOWN IN THE WAGON, PRETTY NEAR THE SIDEWALK.
Q DID YOU SEE MR. FIELDEN ALL THAT TIME?
A YES SIR.
Q DID MR. FIELDEN HAVE A PISTOL IN HIS HAND?
A NO SIR, I DIDN'T SEE ANY.
Q DID YOU SEE HIM FIRE ANY SHOT?
A NO SIR, NOT ONE.
Q WHAT DID MR. FIELDEN SAY AFTER HE HAD LEFT THE WAGON?
A AFTER THE BOMB EXPLODED, THE POLICEMAN SHOT ALL OF THE CROWD, SO I WENT ON THE SIDEWALK, AND MR. FIELDEN STEPPED ON THE SIDEWALK TOO---AFTER THIS I DIDN'T SEE HIM ANY MORE.
Q YOU SAY YOU SAW MR. SPIES ON THE WAGON WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVED THERE?
A YES, I SAW HIM.
Q WHEN DID HE LEAVE THE WAGON?
A ABOUT THE SAME TIME THAT FIELDEN DID.
Q ABOUT THE SAME TIME THAT FIELDEN DID?
A YES, MAY BE THREE SECONDS BEFORE----I CAN'T SAY EXACTLY.
Q HAD THE CAPTAIN COMMENCED TO MAKE THE COMMAND FOR THE CROWD TO DISPERSE AT THE TIME MR. FIELDEN STEPPED DOWN?
A I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT NOW.
Q WAS IT AFTER THE CAPTAIN COMMENCED TO SPEAK, "I COMMAND YOU TO DISPERSE" AND ETC, THAT IT WAS MR. SPIES GOT DOWN FROM THE WAGON?
A YES, AFTER THIS I SAW HIM.
Q DID YOU SEE ANY CITIZEN SHOOT THERE?
A NO SIR.
Q WHERE DID THE FIRING COME FROM?
A OUT OF THE POLICE CROWN.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THAT?
A I WENT OVER ON LAKE STREET.
Q TO LAKE STREET.
A YES SIR.
Q WHERE DID YOU GO ON LAKE STREET?
A TO ZEPF'S HALL.
Q INTO THE SALOON?
A NO SIR.
Q WHERE?
A I WENT UP TO THE MEETING OF THE CABINET MAKERS. I WAS THERE BEFORE, AND WENT UP AGAIN. I WAS THERE ABOUT TWO MINUTES AND MR. ZEPF, HE CLOSED THE HALL AND WENT HOME.
Q WHICH ROOM?
A UPSTAIRS IN THE THIRD FLOOR.
Q THERE WAS A MEETING OF CABINET MAKERS HELD AT ZEPF'S HALL THAT NIGHT?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU BELONG TO ANY GROUP OF ARARCHISTS?
A NO SIR.
A AND ARMED SECTION?
A NO SIR.
Q IS THE FURNITURE WORKERS UNION REPRESENTED BY DELEGATES IN THE CENTRAL LAEOR UNION?
A NO SIR, IT IS REPRESENTED BY THE TRADE AND LABOR UNION.
Q THE TRADE AND LABOR ASSEMBLY?
A YES SIR.
Q ARE YOU A KNIGHT OF LABOR?
A NO SIR.
Q ARE YOU A SOCIALIST?
A NO SIR.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. INGHAM.
Q WHAT TIME DID YOU GO TO ZEPF'S HALL THAT NIGHT?
A MAY BE A QUARTER PAST EIGHT.
Q YOU STAYED THERE HOW LONG?
A ABOUT TO HALF PAST NINE.
Q THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?
A I WENT HOME TO DESPLAINES STREET. I LIVE OUT IN DESPLAINES STREET AND WAS GOING HOME.
Q YOU DIDN'T GO STRAIGHT HOME?
A I SEE THERE WAS A MEETING THERE AND STOPPED THERE.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU STOP THERE?
A UNTIL THE THING WAS OUT.
Q WHO WAS IN THE WAGON WHEN YOU STOPPED THERE?
A I ONLY KNOW MR. FIELDEN AND SPIES.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU KNOW MR. FIELDEN AND SPIES?
A A COUPLE OF WEEKS, A COUPLE OF MONTHS.
Q WHERE DID YOU SEE THEN?
A I SEE THEM SPEAK ABOUT THE EIGHT HOUR MOVEMENT.
Q WHERE DID YOU SEE THEM SPEAK?
A AT ZEPF'S HALL.
Q HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU HEAR THEM SPEAK AT ZEPH'S HALL?
A I SEEN FIELDEN ONE TIME AND SPIES, I SEEN HIM AT THE HALL, AT THE SECOND TIME, ON THE EIGHT HOUR MOVEMENT.
Q WHERE WAS THE SPEAKING AT THE EIGHT HOUR MEETING ---WHERE DID YOU HEAR HIM?
A IN BORWARTS TURNER HALL.
Q WHEN WAS THAT?
A SIX O'CLOCK.
Q WHAT TIME ABOUT SIX O'CLOCK?
A I CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q ABOUT HOW LONG BEFORE THE HAYMARKET TROUBLE?
A ABOUT TWO MONTHS.
Q DID YOU EVER HEAR EITHER OF THEM SPEAK AT ANY OTHER TIME?
A NO SIR.
Q YOU STOOD ABOUT HOW FAR FROM THE WAGON?
A ABOUT THREE STEPS.
Q WHICH DIRECTION FROM THE WAGON?
A SOUTH EAST.
Q ON THE SIDEWALK?
A NOT ON THE SIDEWALK, ON THE STREET.
Q YOU WERE ON THE STREET?
A YES SIR.
Q WHERE WERE THE POLICE WHEN YOU SAW THEM FIRST?
A ON THE STREET.
Q ABOUT HOW FAR FROM YOU?
A ABOUT EIGHT OR TEN STEPS.
Q THAT WAS THE FIRST YOU SAW THE,----THEY WERE ABOUT EIGHT OR TEN STEPS FROM YOU?
A YES SIR.
Q WHO WAS ON THE WAGON AT THE TIME?
A I ONLY KNOW SPIES AND FIELDEN.
Q ANYBODY ELSE?
A THERE MORE FELLOWS?----I DON'T KNOW THEM.
Q WHO GOT OFF FIRST, FIELDEN OR SPIES?
A FIELDEN---MR. SPIES, HE WENT DOWN A COUPLE OF SECONDS BEFORE FIELDEN,.
Q WHERE DID SPIES GET DOWN, WHICH SIDE?
A ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE WAGON.
Q WHAT DO YOU MEAN, EAST, WEST, NORTH OR SOUTH?
A THE SIDEWALK.
Q ON THE EAST SIDE?
A YES SIR.
Q WHICH SIDE DID FIELDEN GET OFF FROM?
A SOUTHEAST ON THE CORNER.
Q ON THE SIDEWALK OR ON THE STREET?
A ON THE STREET.
Q ON THE SOUTHEAST CORNER?
A YES SIR.
Q YOU ARE CERTAIN OF THAT ARE YOU---YOU ARE CERTAIN HE GOT OFF THE SOUTHEAST CORNER?
A WHO WAS SHOOTING?
Q YOU ARE SURE OF IT, ARE YOU?
A YES SIR.
Q NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT?
A NO SIR.
Q DIDN'T HE GET OFF FROM THE WEST SIDE OF THE WAGON?
A NO SIR.
Q DID YOU WATCH HIM AFTER HE GOT OFF THE WAGON?
A YES SIR.
Q WHERE DID HE GO?
A HE KEPT RIGHT ON THE STREET, AND THE CAPTAIN CAME THERE---I
DON'T KNOW THE CAPTAIN, AND SAID A COUPLE OF WORDS TO MR. FIELDEN.
Q WHAT DID HE SAY TO FIELDEN?
A I DON'T KNOW.
Q WHAT DID FIELDEN SAY?
A HE WENT ON TO THE SIDEWALK.
Q WHAT DID HE DO AFTER HE GOT ON TO THE SIDEWALK?
A THE POLICE SHOT THE CROWD, AND HE RAN AWAY LIKE THE OTHER FELLOWS.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO.
A I WENT AWAY TOO.
Q YOU SAW HIM RUNNING AWAY?
A HE DIDN'T RUN VERY QUICK.
Q DON'T YOU KNOW FIELDEN WAS SHOT OUT IN THE STREET BY THE BOMB?
A NO SIR.
Q YOU SAW HIM RUN ON THE SIDEWALK?
A HE STEPPED ON THE SIDEWALK, YES SIR.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO?
A I WENT AWAY.
Q WHICH WAY DID YOU GO?
A TO ZEPF'S HALL.
Q YOU WENT NORTH?
A YES, I WENT NORTH.
Q TO ZEPF'S HALL?
A YES SIR.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN ZEPF'S HALL?
A ABOUT THREE MINUTES.
Q THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?
A I GO HOME.
Q MANY OF YOU GO TO ZEPF'S HALL?
A NO SIR.
Q WHERE WAS YOUR HOME?
A MY HOME WAS 436 JEFFERSON STREET.
Q WHICH DIRECTION FROM THE HAYMARKET, NORTH OR SOUTH?
A SOUTH.
Q AS SOON AS THE SHOOTING BEGAN YOU WENT NORTH?
A YES SIR.
Q WENT RIGHT BACK TO ZEPF'S HALL?
A I WENT BACK IN THE ALLEY.
Q DID YOU GO INTO THE HALL?
A YES SIR.
Q DID YOU GO INTO THE HALL OR SALOON?
A NO SIR, I WENT INTO THE HALL.
Q WHAT ALLEY DID YOU GO INTO?
A I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NAME OF THE ALLEY IS.
Q WHERE IS THE ALLEY?
A IT IS ABOUT TWO HOUSES FROM THE CORNER, THE SOUTH CORNER OF THE SALOON, WHAT IS THERE ---I DON'T KNOW.
Q HOW FAR WAS THAT ALLEY FROM THE WAGON, THAT YOU WENT INTO?
A IT IS ABOUT I GUESS, FIFTY STEPS AND SOMETHING.
Q FROM THE WAGON?
A I DIDN'T COUNT THEM.
Q WHICH WAY DOES THE ALLEY RUN?
A SHE RUNS THIS WAY, AND OUT THIS WAY ON LAKE STREET.
Q YOU WENT THROUGH THAT ALLEY?
A YES SIR.
Q AFTER YOU GOT THROUGH THAT ALLEY YOU WENT TO ZEPF'S HALL?
A YES SIR.
Q WHAT MADE YOU GO TO ZEPF'S HALL?
A I GO BECAUSE THE POLICE SHOT INTO THE CROWD, AND I DIDN'T WANT TO BE KILLED.
Q DIDN'T YOU GO TO ZEPF'S HALL BECAUSE A CROWD WAS THERE?
A IT WAS NOT A CROWD THERE, ONLY FIVE OR SIX.
Q HOW MANY WERE THERE AT ZEPF'S HALL?
A NOT MUCH.
Q HOW MANY WERE THERE?
A SIX OR SEVEN --- I DIDN'T COUNT THEM.
Q I WILL ASK YOU IF ZEPF'S HALL WAS NOT CROWDED WITH PEOPLE JUST AFTER THE SHOOTING?
A JUST BEFORE IT WAS CROWDED--THERE WAS A BIG MEETING THERE THAT NIGHT.
Q AFTER THE SHOOTING?
A NO SIR.
Q
Q JUST AFTER THE SHOOTING?
A NO SIR, IT WAS NOT CROWDED.
Q YOU ARE POSITIVE OF THAT?
A NO SIR.
Q HOW MANY WERE THERE?
A I DIDN'T COUNT THEM ---SIX OR SEVEN.
Q ANYBODY ELSE THERE BESIDES YOURSELF THAT WAS SHOT?
A NO SIR.
Q WHERE YOU SHOT?
A I WAS SHOT IN THE PANTS.
Q WHERE IS ZEPF'S HALL?
A I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER.
Q WHAT STREET IS IT ON?
A ON LAKE STREET.
Q ON THE CORNER OF DESPLAINES?
A YES.
Q WHICH CORNER?
A I DON'T KNOW.
Q THE NORTHEAST CORNER?
A THAT IS THIS CORNER.
Q WHAT PORTION OF ZEPF'S BUILDING WERE YOU IN, WHAT FLOOR WERE YOU IN?
A I WENT UP TO THE THIRD FLOOR.
Q AFTER THE SHOOTING?
A YES SIR.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY?
A THREE YEARS AND SIX MONTHS.
Q WHERE DID YOU LIVE BEFORE YOU CAME HERE?
A NEW ORLEANS.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE IN NEW ORLEANS?
A TWO YEARS AND TWO MONTHS.
Q WHERE DID YOU LIVE BEFORE THAT?
A THE OLD COUNTRY.
Q WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE OLD COUNTRY?
A GERMANY.
Q WERE YOU BORN IN GERMANY?
A YES SIR.
Q WHAT PART OF GERMANY?
A HIGH GERMANY.
Q WHAT PLACE?
A WURTENBERG.
Q WHERE ARE YOU WORKING?
A CORNER OF CLINTON AND VANBUREN STREETS.
Q WHO FOR?
A MR. EVANS.
Q WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR NOW?
A MR. DAVIS----EVANS & A DAVIS.
MR. ZEISLER: Q WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO ZEPF'S BUILDING, YOU DIDN'T GO INTO THE SALOON AT ALL, DID YOU?
A NO SIR.
MR. INGHAM: Q WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO ZEPF'S BUILDING, WAS THE SALOON OPEN OR SHUT?
A I CAN'T SAY THAT.
Q DID YOU TRY TO GET IN?
A NO SIR.