Direct examination by Captain Black. Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al.

Attended the Haymarket meeting and stood in the alley. Went back to the scene of the bombing on the next day to look at the walls and lamp posts for bullet markings. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.L 224), Spies' speech at Haymarket (vol.L 224), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.L 224), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.L 226), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.L 226), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.L 227), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.L 227), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.L 228), Fielden, Samuel (vol.L 228), anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.L 265), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.L 228), trajectory of the bomb (vol.L 230), the bomb (vol.L 231), socialists and/or socialism (vol.L 237), the American Group (vol.L 239), (vol.L 264), Greif's Hall (vol.L 240), the Alarm (vol.L 249), (vol.L 264), street lights and/or lights on the wagon (vol.L 255), Parsons, Albert (vol.L 239), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.L 50).

a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. Black, and testifid as follows:

Q What is your full name?

A James D. Taylor.

Q You are a physician by profession?

A Yes sir.

Q What is your age?

A Seventy-six.

Q Where were you born?

A IN England.

Q What school of medicine or surgery did you study and practice?

A Electicism.

Q How long have you practiced medicine?

A Forty years.

Q Where?

A In this country generally.

Q How long have you lived in this country?

A Forty-four years.

Q Where?

A In Illinois.

Q During the whole time?

A Chiefly.

Q How long have you lived in Chicago?

A About three years.

Q Three years last past?

A Three years last past.

Q You have been naturalized, have you?

A Yes sir.

Q Where are you living now in Chicago?

A I am living at No/5 Gurley street.

Q How long have you lived at No. 5 Gurley street?

A About ten months.

Q Ten months last past?

A Ten months last past.

Q Consecutively?

A Yes sir.

Q Where were you on the night of the 4th of May, 1886?

A I was at Haymarket?

Q Will you please tell when you reached the Haymarket on that evening?

A I could not tell as to time, but I was there about twenty minutes before the meeting commenced.

Q Before the meeting commenced you say---I suppose that means before speaking commenced?

A Yes sir, before the speaking commenced.

Q During that twenty minutes where were you?

A I was right---I was in the alley, or right close to the alley. I am hard of hearing. I was standing over the curb stone on the north side of the alley.

Q What alley do you refer to?

A ON Crane's alley., the south end of Crane's building.

Q On what street, Desplaines or Rand-olph?

A Desplaines.

Q How near to the west edge of the sidewalk were you standing?

A I was right close on it.

Q Close, then as I understand, to the west edge of the sidewalk and to the north edge of the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q So that you stood upon the north west corner of the

sidewalk and the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q How long did you occupy that position that night?

Q Well, I occupied it as long as I staid there, and I staid there as long as the bullets would let me.

Q You were there then when the bomb exploded?

A Yes sir.

MR. GRINNELL: How long was he there in fact. You asked him how long and he did not answer it. Now how long did he stay there.

THE WITNESS: I was the last man that left the alley.

MR. BLACK: Q When did you take that position, doctor?

A I took that position at first when I went there.

Q Before the speaking commenced?

A yes sir.

Q Were you standing there when the speaking commenced?

A I did.

Q And remained in that position until after the explosion of the bomb?

A Yes sir.

Q And until after the pistol firing commenced?

A Yes sir.

Q From the position where you stood, state whether or not you were able to hear the speaking?

A I heard distinctly every word.

Q You refer now in your answer to the speaking that took place from the truck wagon?

A Yes sir, from the wagon.

Q What was the location of the wagon?

A. The tail end of the wagon was nearest to the alley.

Q How far from where you stood according to your best recollection?

A. Well, it could not have been more than about four feet.

Q From where you stood?

A. No.

Q What did you hear Spies say in the course of his remarks that evening, if you heard him say anything?

A. Well, what particularly struck me was this. In reply to some persons that was talking about hanging Jay Gould, says he, "You had better shut up and go home and learn more of what you ought to know before you begin talking about" hanging anybody" Says he, "We are not here for that purpose."

Q Do you remember the remarks made by him on opening the meeting?

A. Not particularly the remarks, I do not. That struck me as particular-- it was so modified.

MR. BLACK; When ever an objection is made don't answer it until the objection is passed upon by the Court.

THE WITNESS: No, of course not.

Q Who spoke next after Spies?

A. Parsons.

Q What do you remember as having been said in the course of that speech by Parsons?

A. I don't know that I can remember anything very distinctly. His mode of argument

has always been first to lay down a proposition---

MR. INGHAM: Wait a moment.

THE COURT: I think that is proper.

MR. BLACK; What was his mode of argument that night?

Mr. Ingham: I object. What was his argument?

MR. BLACK: What was his line of argument that night?

MR. INGHAM: It is not for him to say what the line of argument was.

THE COURT: Let the witness state the substance of what Parsons said.

MR. BLACK: State, doctor, the substance of what Parsons said that night, as fully as you can remember it?

A. The substance of his remarks were that in order that they might win this matter in their struggle, they must unite and stand together. That was the substance of his remarks.

Q Who did he refer to in those remarks saying that in order to win they must unite and stand together.?

A. He didn't speak of anybody in particular that I know of; but I gathered from his general remarks that it was those that were struggling for the eight hour system.

Q Did he speak that night in reference to the eight hour system. Did you hear him mention it?

A. Yes sir

Q After Parsons concluded who spoke next?

A Fielden.

Q Do you remember what was said by Fielden that night?

A I don't remember his general remarks, but there was some particular remarks that I did hear.

Q What were they?

A Speaking of the character of the law and its application as it was administered--- " Now" says he, " Damn the law, throttle the law. " Those were his remarks.

Q Speaking you say of its present administration.

A Yes sir.

Q Did you see the police come upon the scene of action that night?

A Yes sir.

Q Where was the front rank of the police with reference to your position?

A They were on a line with mine, and I could have touched the first man with my arm, and I was standing on the north side of the alley.

Q Did you see that night Capt. Ward and Inspector Bonfield?

A I don't know them by person.

Q Did you see any police officers march that night in front of the front rank?

A Yes sir.

Q How near did those police officers or any of them go to the wagon on which the speaking was going on?

A I think they were about as near as I could judge, about

six feet from the wagon.

Q Did you hear anything said by either of them?

A I heard the man that was at the head of them say; " I command you in the name of the State of Illinois to disperse."

Q You heard that remark?

A Yes sir.

Q Who was on the wagon at that time?

A Mr. Fielden was on the wagon, or at least was just about coming down from the wagon.

Q By the way, what was the size of the crowd at that time as compared with the numbers prior to that time?

A I noticed, standing as I was on the sidewalk, and being elevated, that when the police came up, those that were south of the alley began to disperse and go away. There were very few on the south side. As to the number on the north side, I am not able to say. It was dark. I couldn't tell exactly.

Q Had you shortly prior to that time heard any suggestion from any source looking to the adjournment of the meeting?

A Yes sir, Mr. Fielden had referred to it.

Q What had Mr. Fielden said in that connection, if you remember?

A Says he, "We have talked long enough, and "it is time to disperse."

Q How long was that before the police came upon the scene of action?

A Just about the time they were coming--just

about the time.

Q In what tone of voice did Fielden speak?

A In an ordinary tone, just as he would on any other occasion.

Q Is he a man of strong voice or otherwise?

A Strong voice.

Q Now, at the time that the police appeared, or at any time before or after they came, and took their position, did you hear Mr. Fielden or anybody else in the crowd, or in the neighborhood of the wagon say in effect, "Here come the bloodhounds," or "The bloodhounds of the "police"?

A Never.

Q "You do your duty and I will do mine?"

A Never.

Q You heard nothing of that sort?

A No sir.

Q You heard the bomb explode?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you hear any pistol short or pistol shots from any direction prior to the explosion of the bomb?

A Not one.

Q Did you see Fielden immediately before or at the time of the explosion of the bomb?

A I saw him after the bomb exploded.

Q Did you also see him on the wagon immediately before?

A I did.

Q You saw him when he got down from the wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q By the way, did you hear any response made by Fielden to the proclamation made by the police officer, whoever he was, commanding the meeting to disperse?

A I heard him say, "We are peaceable."

Q When was that said with reference to getting down from the wagon?

A After they had remarked said they should disperse.

Q But with reference to his getting off the wagon, was it said before he got down from the wagon, or as he was getting down, or immediately afterwards?

A When he was on the wagon still.

Q He stated that when he was on the wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q At that time or at any time when Fielden was on the wagon did Fielden draw a revolver and shoot out or in the direction of the police officers?

A I never saw nothing of the kind.

Q How near to Fielden were you at the time?

A Well, the wagon seemed to me to be about three feet from the sidewalk, and I was close to the sidewalk, standing over the curb stone, and he come down out of the wagon nearest to the police, between the police and the wagon.

Q So that he was only a few feet distant from you at

that time?

A Yes sir, a few feet.

Q Did you see what became of Fielden after he got down from the wagon?

A I couldn't tell. I watched him there as long as I could, but finally I looked in the direction in which he had been standing, and he wasn,t there.

Q You say you didn,t see him use any pistol?

A No sir.

Q At any time?

A No sir.

Q On the wagon or off it?

A No sir.

Q And didn't hear any pistol shots?

A No sir.

Q Prior to the explosion of the bomb?

A I didn't.

Q Did you see the bomb itself?

A I did.

Q In the air?

A Yes sir.

Q When and at what point did you see it?

A Well, as near as I could judge it was between twenty and forty feet south of the alley, and the man that threw it whoever he might be stood beyond a couple of boxes. Those boxes were as near as I could judge, between five and six feet elevated one on the other.

Q Those boxes were on the sidewalk were they?

A Yes sir.

Q South of the lamp post?

A Yes sir.

Q The lamp post that I refer to is the one that occupied the south west corner of the alley and sidewalk?

A. I understand it.

Q It was across the alley from you?

A Yes sir.

Q These boxes were south of the lamp post?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you re-visit the ground the next morning after the occurrence?

A I did.

Q State whether or not the boxes were still there?

A The boxes were there.

Q The same boxes that you had seen the man throw the bomb from behind?

A The same boxes for anything I know.

Q Did you see what became of the man who threw the bomb?

A I didn't. When he threw the bomb I could see nothing but his head.

Q State just what you saw of the bomb, and of its passage through the air?

A When I first saw it, thought it was like a boy's fire cracker, and I took it to be that, and it was not more than about six feet above the boxes when I saw it, and it circled through the air in a northwest direction, and lighted as near as I could judge between the first line of policemen and the second, a little west of the center of the street.

Q Where did it light with reference to the mouth of the alley?

A Well, it lighted as near as I could think about perhaps a little south of the mouth of the alley.

Q And a little west of the center of the street?

A Yes sir.

Q You said that it went, unless I misunderstood you, in a southwesterly direction--- did you mean southwest or north west?

A I meant northwest.

Q Alighting in the place you have indicated.

A Yes sir

Q After the explosion of the bomb did you see and hear any pistol firing?

A It seemed to me almost simultaneous, the pistol firing and the firing of the bomb.

Q You mean the explosion of the bomb?

A Yes sir.

Q From whence did the pistol firing proceed?

A It came from the direction where the police were?

Q Did you see or hear any pistol firing from the crowd upon the police?

A Not one.

Q Was there any pistol firing observed by you from the crowd that stood immediately about you?

A% Not one.

Q Or in the vicinity of the wagon?

A% not one

Q In what direction did you make your departure from your position there?

A Up the alley.

Q Crane's alley?

A Yes sir.

Q What position did you occupy with reference to other persons who were going up the alley-- were you at their

rear or in their front or where?

A I was the last man that went up there.

Q The last man that went up the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q When you re-visited the ground the next morning, did you make any special examination with reference to the marks or pistol shots in and about the alley, and upon other fixed objects in that vicinity?

A I did.

Q What was the result of your investigation. First of all as to the alley, where did you find the bullett marks?

A I found them on the north end of the wall of Crane's building. They must have come from a southwest direction, they way they hit the wall.

Q When you say north end of wall, I suppose you mean the wall which forms the north side of the alley?

MR. Black: Don't object until I frame my question.

THE COURT: That is clearly wrong in the way it begins.

MR. BLACK: I am not objecting to the ruling of the Court upon the question. I am simply objecting to being interrupted in making my questions.

Q What do you mean, doctor, by the suggestion you made, "On the north end of the wall."-- what wall do you refer to?

A I mean it would be the south end of the wall so far as the wall itself is concerned, but on the north side of the

alley.

Q The wall of what building?

A Of Crane's alley. Crane's building.

Q Did you observe any pistol shots on the wall at the south side of the alley?

A Not one.

Q Was there any other fixed object that you examined that time specially with reference to pistol marks?

A There were.

Q Do you remember anything about a telegraph pole?

A Yes sir.

Q Where was that telegraph pole located?

A The telegraph pole was on the west side of the street.

Q On the west side of the street where with reference to the north or south?

A Desplaines street and south of the alley.

Q South of the alley on the opposite side?

THE COURT: Which side of the street?

A They were on the west side of the street.

MR. BLACK: He has already stated the west side of Desplaines street.

Q When you say alley, doctor, what alley do you refer to?

A I mean what we call Crane's alley.

Q Now, with reference to the telegraph pole, what alley do you refer to?

A There was no alley there. It was the main street.

Q How far was it from Randolph Street that the telegraph pole stood?

A Well, I couldn't say exactly.

Q How far was it from what is called Eagle Street which runs west from Desplaines between Randolph and Lake, near the north line of Crane,s building.?

A All I can say with reference to it is that it was the first telegraph pole that was north of Crane's alley.

Q North of Crane,s alley?

A Yes sir.

Q On the opposite side of the street?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, what did you observe as to the telegraph pole, or as to any pistol marks on it or about it?

A I noticed that all the perforations were on the south side of the telegraph pole.

Q Did you notice any pistol shots or fresh marks upon that telegraph pole on its north side?

A No sir, not one.

Q Have you subsequently looked for that pole?

A I have.

Q Is it standing there now?

A No sir.

Q When did you first observe that it was not there any

longer?

A About a week and a half ago.

Q I call your attention to a plat which shows Desplaines street from the Haymarket past Crane Brothers establishment up to Lake Street, showing the alley south of Crane Brothers, the alley north, and what is called Eagle Street on the opposite side of the street, showing the sidewalk in yellow in front of Crane Brothers, and the alley passing through it into the street. Can you state as nearly as you can locate it about where that telegraph pole was upon the ground, indicating it on the plat?

A Does the red indicate the building?

Q The red indicates Crane Brothers Manufacturing Company's building. The plat lies with the north end towards you and south end in this direction--- Haymarket down here. This is Desplaines street running north and south (indicating)

A. This being the north end of it%

Q Yes, the north end next to you. You may step down if it will facilitate your work and locate it.

(Witness here stepped down and indicated on plat)

A As near as I could judge it was about here.

Q On the east side of the street?

A On the west side.

Q That is the west side over there. Here is the south, and here is where I understand you stood?

A Yes sir.

It about there (indicating)-

Q It was then as you designate it now on the west side of the street north of the alley, projected across the street?

A Yes sir.

Q South of what is called Eagle Street?

A Yes sir.

Q Between the two?

A Yes sir. I can describe it verbally the best.

Q Where did you go after passing through the alley that night--- what route did you take?

A I took several routes, I took a zig zag route to get out of the way of pistol shots, for they were coming all the way from there to Madison street.

Q You came down Crane's alley?

A Yes sir, and I then got out as soon as I could right down Desplaines again, and went to get down there and took some other route.

Q After going east through the alley, upon what street did you first go out in going from Crane's Brothers alley?

A I don't know what street it was, But I know it was east of----

Q East of Desplaines?

A Yes sir.

Q Are you a Socialist?

A I am.

Q Are you an Anarchist?

A No sir, not in the sense in which Anarchism is understood in the community--- no sir.

Q You are, however, a Socialist?

A Yes sir.

Q How long have you been a Socialist?

A Oh, for fifty years.

Q You were a Socialist in England before you came to this country?

A I first learned Socialism from Father Owen, the father of Robert Dale Owen.

Q In England?

A In England.

Q How long have you known the defendants or any of them?

A I have known them for about three years.

Q Which of them have you known?

A Oh, I have known Fielden and Parsons, and I have known them particularly more than I have the others.

Q Which others have you known--- you have known Spies?

A Yes sir.

Q How long?

A I have known Spies about a couple of years.

Q Do you know personally Neebe?

A Yes, I have seen him.

Q Have you a personal acquaintance with him?

A I never had much personal acquaintance with him.

Q Do you know Schwab?

A No sir.

Q You dont know Schwab?

A No Sir.

Q Do you know Fischer?

A No sir.

Q Or Lingg?

A No sir.

Q Or Engel?

A No.

Q I understand then that you are specially well acquainted with Parsons and Fielden?

A Yes sir.

Q Somewhat acquainted with Spies?

A Yes sir.

Q And that you have met Neebe, but have no special acquaintance with him?

A Yes sir, hardly any.

Q You dodn't know the other four?

A No sir.

Q Have you ever attended any of the meetings held in Chicago other than the Haymarket meeting at which the defendants you have named or any of them spoken?

A I have.

Q How often?

A A good many times.

Q Have you ever spoken at any of the meetings yourself?

A I have controvertially.

Q Are you a member of the American Group of the International Society?

A I was

Q You were a member of that group?

A Yes sir.

Q Up to what time?

A Up to the time that it disbanded.

Q When was it abandoned with reference to the 4th of May?

A It never was really disbanded. It is not now that I know of.

Q What you mean is simply that there has been no meetings since the 4th of May?

A No sir, there has been no meetings since the interruption.

Q How long have you been a member of the American group?

A Well, a couple of years.

Q Where have you attended and taken part in meetings?

A Chiefly at 54 west Lake.

Q In what hall?

A Greif's hall.

Q What is the character of those meetings, whether they were public or secret?

A They were all public-- public were always invited.

Q When you say you were a member of the American group, will you state, please, how you became a member of that group--- what were the conditions of membership?

MR. BLACK: The object is simply to show that there was no secrecy, no obligations, no anything.

Q I don't mean what are your motives% I am not inquiring as to that, but what were the terms or incidents of membership as to whether any obligations were entered into, oaths taken, or anything of that kind?

A Nothing of that character.

THE COURT: I don't see how you can inquire into that.

MR. BLACK; I didn't myself think it was material until the gentlemen were permitted to put in the proof that these men were members of the Internationalists. If that was material to put in, this is material to show what is meant

by membership in the International. what the inquiry is, is what are its purposes--- what are its methods?

THE COURT: What their particular individual acts and language was is admissable--- that is, I mean of the defendants. Whether at the time of saying or doing anything which is charged as being wrong, they were meeting in any particular society, came in incidentally; but there has been no inquiry that occurs to my recollection as to the doctrine or purposes or aims of any society. There has been a publication of a platform shown in evidence, publishing in the Arbeiter Zeitung.

MR%. GRINNELL: And also in the Alarm.

THE COURT: But I do not understand that there has been any inquiry into socialism or international associations or socialists, or anything else, except where it came in as showing what these defendants had said or published or done.

MR. BLACK: Very well. We will note an exception, if your Honor please.

And I will say simply that by this witness as well as by other witnesses we offer to prove that membership in the American and other groups of the so-called International Workingmen's Association--- Was the title of that association the International Workingmen's Association, or what was its title.

THE WITNESS: I know no title that it had only the International.

MR% Black: Of course I could not make that proof by him then. But I offer to prove that the International consisted simply and only in a party expressing his willingness or desire to join in the agitation in which they were engaged, and that there were no oaths or obligations in connection with it whatever.

THE COURT: There is no charge against anybody because he belongs to any society. The only question is what he said or did.

MR. BLACK: I am afraid before the argument gets through your Honor will find that you are very much mistaken. My recollection is that that is one of the charges against Mr. Neebe.

THE WITNESS: I wish to state to you that the Chicago Tribune has my published ideas on that subject nine months ago.

MR% BLACK: That is immaterial, doctor.

The defendants' counsel then and there expepted to the ruling of the Court excluding the testimony and denying the offer.

Q How long have you been a member of the American Group?

A I think about a year or a little more.

Q How often have you met any of the defendants, and particularly the defendants parsons, Fielden and Spies at meetings of that group, or at any of the meetings of the International public or mass--- I mean regular or mass?

A They have not been regular.

Q They have not been regular in their attendance?

A No.

Q Have you also heard any of them speak up on the Lake Front?

A I have.

Q Now, will you state what you have heard--- we will take them one at a time--- Mr. Parsons, say, if anything, in any of the meetings at which you have heard him speak, whether at 54 West Lake street, or upon the Lake Front, as to the use of force in connection with the work of the International?

MR. BLACK: I will withdraw that question on consultation with my associates. You may take the witness.

Q What time did you get to the Haymarket?

A I got there I suppose before seven.

Q How long before seven?

A I can't say.

Q Where were you just before you went to the Haymarket?

A Well, I walked right from home, was taking a regular evening walk in that direction.

Q Where do you live?

A At 5 Gurley Street.

Q You walked directly from home to the Haymarket?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you stop at any place on your way to the Haymarket?

A I did not.

Q Did you attend a meeting of the American Group that night at any place?

A No sir.

Q Did you see any notice of a call for the American Group?

A No sir.

Q Had not seen any?

A No sir.

Q So you walked directly from your home to the Haymarket?

A Yes sir.

Q How did you know there was to be a meeting at the Haymarket?

A I did not know.

Q How did you happen to be there?

A I saw people going up in that direction in more than usual numbers, I asked what was the matter and where they were going. They told me they were going to a meeting up on the Hay-market.

Q Who were those people?

A I can't tell who they were.

Q Where were you when you first saw the people in unusual numbers?

A I saw them going in in unusual numbers.

Q Where did you first see the unusual numbers?

A Above Madison?

Q On what street?

A On Desplaines.

Q What time of the night was that?

A it must have been about seven, or not far from it.

Q What did you do after you got to the Haymarket?

A They told me there was going to be a meeting there, and I got there I kept seeing the people and kept waiting until the meeting opened.

Q Where did you wait?

A Right close to the alley.

Q Did you go there directly after you got to the Haymarket?

A Yes sir.

Q You went right to that alley near Crane's and waited there for the meeting to be called there?

A I did.

Q People told you there was going to be a meeting at the Hay-market?

A Yes sir.

Q So you went up to Crane's by that alley and stood there until the meeting was called?

A I did.

Q Are you mistaken about that?

A No sir.

Q Can't be mistaken about that?

A No sir.

Q Did not you wait on the hay-market?

A What do you call the Hay-market?

Q The widening of Randolph Street. You remember Randolph Street is widened--- here is Crane's, there was a wagon (indicating)?

A Yes sir.

Q Here is where you stood?

A Yes sir.

Q Here is Desplaines along here (indicating)?

A Yes sir.

Q Here is the hay-market. You say you came down and stood there from the time you got there until the meeting was

called to order?

A Yes sir.

Q Are you positive of that?

A I went from Madison right up to there, to the alley.

Q Didn't you go on the hay-market and stand on the hay-market a while?

A No sir.

Q Not any place on the hay-market?

A No sir.

Q Didn't you stand on the Hay-market and talk with any group there?

A no sir.

Q Or talk with any people there?

A No.

Q You went directly to that place?

A yes sir.

Q And stood there?

A Yes sir.

Q What did you do that for?

A On purpose to hear.

Q You wanted to be where the meeting was going to be called?

A Yes sir, I wanted to hear what was going to be said.

Q You went directly to that place?

A yes, sir, just like I would go to church.

Q To hear a socialistic discussion?

A Yes sir.

Q Did anybody tell you there was going to be a socialistic meeting?

A No sir.

Q You went there to hear the discussion?

A yes sir, exactly.

Q What time did you get there?

A A little before seven I think.

Q How long did you stay there before the meeting began?

A I stayed there, I suppose twenty or thirty minutes.

Q And then the meeting began?

A yes sir.

Q Who called the meeting to order?

A mr. Spies was the first to speak.

Q What did he say?

A Well, I can't particularly tell what he said.

Q What did he say at first--- the first thing that he said?

A I don't know that I can remember particularly what he did say first.

Q you can,t remember what he said at first?

A I was impressed with the idea that he said that he had come there with some reluctance.

Q He was not anxious to make a speech that night?

A No sir.

Q He came there because somebody urged him to come?

A I think somebody told me that he was sent for.

Q He said at any rate. that he came with some reluctance.?

A Some reluctance.

Q What else did he say in that connection?

A Nothing in that connection that I know of.

Q Did he give any reason for his being reluctant to make a speech that night?

A Not that I know of in particular.

Q How many speeches have you heard Mr. Spies make at socialistic gatherings?

A I have heard him make some seven or

eight I guess.

Q Why did that remark impress itself on your mind, that he came there with some reluctance?

A because I thought may be the gentleman was tired or he had other business--- I didn't know which.

Q So it impressed itself upon your mind?

A Yes sir.

Q What else did he say?

A I am not able to say.

Q That is all you can tell of what Spies said?

A No, that is not all. As I have said before, there is one particular remark that he made that struck me particular.

Q What was the remark?

A the remark was that they had better shut up and begin to think more, and try to know more before they begin to talk about killing anybody.

Q When was it he said they had better shut up and begin to think more?

A I think he was two thirds way through his speech then.

Q Did you hear him say anything about Jay Gould, or anybody say anything about Jay Gould?

A He didn't say anything about Jay Gould.

Q Who did?

A Some fellow in the crowd.

Q What was it the fellow in the crowd said about Jay Gould?

A He said he ought to be hung.

Q What did Spies say to that?

A He said what I told you. That they had better shut up and go home and begin to

learn more and think more.

Q Before they talked about killing anybody?

A yes, sir.

Q That is all he said?

A yes sir.

Q That is what he said about it?

A That is what he did say about it.

Q You are positive of that?

A yes sir.

Q There can't be any mistake?

A No sir.

Q How much of Parson's speech did you hear?

A I heard Parsons all the way through.

Q Which is Parsons of the defendants?

A There he is (pointing)

Q Just back of Mr. Black? What did you hear him say?

A I heard him say what he always said.

Q We want to know what he said that night?

A that will include it sure.

Q Did he always make the same speech?

A About the same in substance.

Q Was the speech made about the same as the articles in the alarm?

A the articles in the Alarm are so general, I cannot tell anything about that.

Q Were his speeches generally of the same tenor as his editorials?

A His arguments were---

Q Will you answer the question. You have read the Alarm?

A I have read it.

THE COURT: That is not competent.

MR. INGHAM: Q What did he say that night-- not what he said generally.

A It was evident to him that this thing would have to be settled some other way, but what way he didn't say.

Q Some other way than what?

A Some other way than the way it had been; that the history of strikes had been; that they had always been failures, and that they always would be failures, that there was a better way--- that was about--

Q What did he say the better way was?

A The better way was to alter the system.

Q How did he say the system should be altered--- how should they accomplish that?

A He didn't say anything about that.

Q not a word?

A Not that I know of.

Q Did you hear him say anything about arms that night?

A Not that I know of.

Q Did you hear him urge the people to fly to arms? Anything of that sort?

A I didn't.

Q You were standing there all the while during his speech?

A I was standing there.

Q Are you positive he did not say anything about arms?

A Not that I heard.

Q Could you have heard it if he did?

A I think I could.

Q Could you hear all his speech?

A I think I did.

Q you listened to it intently did you?

A I did.

Q Who spoke after he got through?

A Parsons?

Q After Parsons got through?

A Mr. Fielden.

Q What did Fielden say?

A Fieldem did not day anything only what I have told you before.

Q Tell it again?

A Fielden said, speaking of the law as it was administered, that the law had better be throttled.

Q Is that all he said about the law?

A That is about all he said.

Q Was that about all the substance?

A "Damn the law" says he, or "Throttle the law."

Q Is that all Fielden said that you can remember?

A All he said of any particular character.

Q What did he say that had no particular character, if you can recollect it?

A He was speaking relative to the fact that strikes had no force in them of themselves, that they had always been failures, and the history of the world had proven it.

Q What did he say should take the place of strikes?

A Why, that the system ought to be altered.

Q What system ought to be altered

A The whole system by which things were governed.

Q In what way should it be altered?

A Capital and labor.

Q What was his remedy?

A That capital might not own labor.

Q How did he propose to alter it--- what was the remedy?

A He didn't propose that.

Q Didn't propose any remedy?

A No sir.

Q Did you hear him say anything about force?

A No sir.

Q Anything about the ballot?

A He neither said one thing or the other.

Q Did he say it was impossible for workingmen to get their rights by the ballot?

A He did not say that.

Q Are you sure he didn't say that?

A not that I know of, but I have heard him say that before.

Q He didn't say it that night?

A no sir.

Q Didn't he say there the only way working men could get their rights was by the means of force?

A not that I know of, not on that occasion.

Q you heard the speech though?

A Yes sir.

Q All of it?

A Yes sir

Q You went there to hear the speeches and you listened to them?

A Yes sir.

Q Who was speaking at the time the bomb was thrown?

A Nobody.

Q Who was on the wagon?

A Mr. Fielden.

Q Are you certain he was on the wagon the instant the bomb was thrown?

A He had just closed his speech.

Q Was he on the wagon?

A He was coming down out of the wagon.

Q HOW DO YOU KNOW HE WAS?

A BECAUSE I SAW HIM.

Q YOU WERE LOOKING AT HIM?

A YES SIR.

Q YOU KEPT YOU EYE ON HIM?

A YES SIR.

Q YOU ARE NOT MISTAKEN ABOUT THAT?

A NO SIR.

Q DID HE HAVE ANY REVOLVER IN HIS HAND?

A NO SIR.

Q YOU ARE POSITIVE HE DIDN'T?

A NO SIR.

Q HOW LONG DID YOU SEE HIM THERE?

A I SAW HIM STANDING BETWEEN THE WAGON AND THE POLICE MYSELF.

Q BETWEEN THE WAGON AND THE POLICE?

A YES SIR.

Q WHICH SIDE OF THE WAGON?

A THE TAIL END OF THE WAGON.

Q DIDN'T HE PULL OUT HIS REVOLVER, AFTER HE GOT DOWN THERE?

A NO SIR.

Q HOW DO YOU KNOW HE DIDN'T?

A BECAUSE I COULD HAVE SEEN HIM.

Q HOW LONG DID YOU LOOK AT HIM THERE?

A I REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I LOOKED IN THE DIRECTION HE FIRST STOOD, THAT WAS AFTER THE BOMB WAS THROWN, HE WAS DOWN, OR HE WAS GONE---I DON'T KNOW WHICH.

Q DID YOU KEEP YOUR EYE ON HIM, FROM THE TIME YOU SAW HIM SPEAK ON THE WAGON UNTIL THE BOMB EXPLODED?

A I DID.

Q YOU ARE POSITIVE OF THAT?

A YES SIR, I AM.

Q YOU DID NOT TAKE YOU EYE OFF HIM ONE MINUTE FROM THE TIME HE WAS STANDING ON THE WAGON SPEAKING UNTIL THE BOMB WAS EXPLODED?

A NOT ONE HALF MINUTE.

Q NOT ONE HALF MINUTE DURING THAT TIME?

A NO SIR.

Q Did you have your eye off him at all during that time?

A Because he was in the line with the police, and as I was looking across the street, and had to see him.

Q You saw him from the time he was speaking, from the time he said, "We sre peaceable" until the bomb had exploded?

A Yes sir.

Q And during that time he didn't have any revolver in his hands?

A No sir.

Q There cannot be any mistake on that?

A No sir.

Q There was not an instant when he could have taken out arevolver from his pocket?

A No sir, there was not.

Q Where did he go then?

A The Lord only knows--- I don't know.

Q Didn't you keep your eye on him after that--- you say the Lond only knows?

A The demoralization was such, mind you, that I think---- I am sure now--- that he was one among the first that was hit with the shell.

Q The demoralization was so great that he was among the first that was hit with the shell?

A Yes sir, I think he went downm and after that I didn't see him.

Q Where did you say he went down?

A I think he went down probably in front of the police.

Q Where in refernce to the wagon--- where did he go down with reference to the wagon?

A Well, he was a little west of the wagon, not much.

Q There is where you think he was struck by the shell and went down?

A I think probably he was.

Q You said the demoralization was so great, what do you mean by the demoralization?

A I saw that the middle ranks of the policemen were demoralized, I saw that, and I know another thing--- I saw one boy right close to where he was standing--- I saw him go down--- a boy was standing in front there.

Q How many of the police did you see go down?

A I can not tell that.

Q But you didn't see Fielden after he went down?

A No sir.

Q You feel very certain he was west of the wagon when he did go down?

A I think he was west a little.

Q And was demoralized by a piece of the bomb?

A I think he was.

Q How many police did you see demoralized at the time the bomb exploded?

A I can't tell. It was too dark for anybody to see that.

Q Was there any light there?

A Not much, only what came from the lamps.

Q The lamps over your head?

A There was no lamp over my head.

Q Where was the lamp?

A There was no lamp only what there was on that side of the street.

Q Where was the lamp on that side of the street?

A It was on the other side.

Q Other side of what? On the west side of the street.

Q Was there any lamps on the east side of the street, where you were standing?

A Not close to me.

Q How far from you?

A I couldn't tell exactly.

Q. About how far?

A I couldn't say.

Q Where was it with reference to Crane's alley?

A Where was I?

Q Where was the lamps with reference to Crane's alley?

A Pretty close to Crane's alley.

Q North or south?

A I think it was on the north side, but I don't know.

Q Was that lamp lighted or was it out?

A I am not sure.

Q How long did you stand in that position?

A I stood there, well I can't tell how long I stood. I know I stood there from the time the bomb was first thrown, and was the last man to go out of the alley. That is all I know.

Q How many men went up the alley before you?

A A good many.

Q You stood your ground until they were all gone?

A It didn't matter to me. I am an old man anyhow.

Q Was there any shooting going on when you ran?

A I guess there was.

Q The police were still firing?

A The police had then begun to go up towards the Hay-market.

Q Were they going back home to the station?

A I know nothing about home or station. They were going up towards the Hay-market.

Q Then you ran through the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q You were the last one through the alley?

A I didn't run out.

Q You walked through the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q You were the last man?

A Yes sir.

Q Did any of the bulletts come in there after you got in there?

A I guess they did.

Q A number of them?

A Yes sir.

Q Pretty thick?

A Yes sir.

Q You didn(t run a particle?

A No sir.

Q Where did you go after you went in the alley?

A I went where I thought I would be out of the way of the bulletts, anyhow.

Q Where was that?

A Well, there was a projection in the alley, from where I was, that stood out, and I simply went and stood behind that projection.

Q You thought by that time you were young enough to live?

A I didn't care anything about that.

Q You did get behind the projection?

A I hadn't time

to think, mind you.

Q How long did you stand behind the projection?

A Not very long.

Q Where did you go then?

A The police had been going towards the Hay-market long enough for me to know that by the sound of their bulletts it would be safe for me to find another retreat.

Q Where did you go then?

A I went to the first opening there was that led me out down into the next street.

Q Where did you go after that?

A Little by little just as I could by dodging here and there, I went down to Madison Street.

Q Where did you dodge after you got on Madison Street?

A I dodged in several places.

Q On Madison Street?

A Yes sir.

Q What place on Madison Street?

A Not on Madison-- I will take that back, on Desplaines, until I got to Madison.

Q Where along on Desplaines street did you dodge?

Q Well, in several places. I can(t tell you any particular place.

Q About where?

A I know nothing about that.

Q It is a long distance from the Hay-market to Madison street?

A Yes sir.

Q Whereabouts along those two blocks did you dodge?

A I can(t tell you, because the police were coming down

each side of Desplaines street and shooting all the way down. And they shot down Madison Street to.

Q They went clear to Madison street?

A And they shot on Madison Street, and I took refuge in the court of the St. Denis Hotel to avoid their shots.

Q On Madison Street?

A Yes sir.

Q How many shots did the police fire on Madison Street?

A There was one man went past me, and I heard him say these words, "God Damn you" says he, "You shall go to hell any how" and away he blazed at the people going on Madison street.

Q That was away down on Madison Street?

A Yes sir.

Q How many shots did you hear on Madison street?

A I heard him shoot three times.

Q At the time you saw the bomb thrown, where were you standing?

A I was standing on that curb of the sidewalk on the north side of the alley.

Q Where was that bomb thrown from?

A it was thrown from the southeast side.

Q How many people were there between you and the place from which the bomb was thrown?

A As to that I couldn,t say.

Q Were there few or many?

A Well, there wasn't many.

Q There were not many?

A No sir.

Q how many would you say between you and the man who threw

the bomb?

A I couldn't say.

Q Could you see the hand of the man that threw the bomb?

A No sir, the first time I saw the fuse was burning.

Q You can't say whether a policeman threw it or not?

A No sir, he might have done it for anything I know.

Q You didn't see the arm of the man who threw it?

A No sir.

Q Did you see the man who threw it?

A I saw nothing but something like his head.

Q Where was the man, or something like a man's head that you saw---where was he standing?

A He was standing right behind those boxes.

Q North or south of the boxes?

A South of the boxes.

Q Was there anybody between you and that man?

A Yes sir.

Q How many between you and him?

A I don't know. I did not count them.

Q Didn't they cut off your sight so you couldn't see?

A No, they didn't cut off my sight so I couldn't see.

Q You could see distinctly?

A I could see so far as to know there were persons there.

Q Could you see distinctly so far as to know he was the man who threw the bomb?

A I could see the fact that the man did throw the bomb because I saw when the bomb first arose, saw the light, and that called my attention to it.

Q How long did you look at that man?

A Not long, I assure you.

Q Did you follow the blaze through the air?

A I was looking at the blaze more than I was at him.

Q How did the blaze go--what sort of motion did it make?

A It made a circling motion.

Q What do you mean by circuling ---that is it made an arch?

A Yes sir.

Q That was the course it took?

A Yes sir.

Q Did the fuse itself have any motion?

A No more than it would in following the bomb.

Q Simply straight after the bomb?

A Yes sir.

Q Did it twist around any like a spiral?

A No sir, I never seen no twist about it.

Q Didn't go like a spiral?

A No sir.

Q Which went first the bomb or the fuse?

A Of course the bomb.

Q Did you see it or you simply speaking from general principles that it must have gone first?

A I seen the bomb enough to know it was a round bomb.

Q It was not a gas pipe bomb?

A No sir.

Q Are you positive that it was not gas pipe?

A I am positive of that.

Q It was round?

A Round bomb.

Q About how big round was it?

A Well, I guess about as

large as one of these base balls here.

Q Could you tell anything about the color of it?

A No sir.

Q Could you tell whether it had a bolt on it?

A No sir.

Q You did see it was round?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you trace it from where you first saw it until it landed?

A I saw it go right down.

Q Where did it go?

A It went down between the first and second line of police there.

Q How many lines of police were there there?

A I couldn't tell you that.

Q You saw two?

A I saw them all but I couldn't tell how many there were.

Q You saw two lines you could distinguish?

A Yes sir.

Q This came between the first and second?

Q Did it fall nearest to the first or second?

A I couldn't tell. It fell a little west of the center of the street. Between those two lines as near as I could judge.

Q What happened when the bomb went off, to the police?

A A terrible demoralization I assure you.

Q They were demoralized?

A Yes sir.

Q Is that all that happened to them?

A I can't tell, particulalrly what happened to them.

Q Did any of them appear to be hurt?

A It made a hole

there, that is all I know.

Q They went down?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you hear any remarks after that?

A No sir.

Q From the police?

A Not much, only groans.

Q How long have you been a physician?

A Forty years.

Q Practicing physician for that long?

A Yes sir.

Q What school?

A Electic.

Q Graduate of any medical school?

A Yes sir.

Q What?

A The Eccletic.

Q Where?

A In Cincinnati.

Q Are you also a surgeon?

A No sir.

Q How long have you practiced in this city?

A I have practiced about three years.

Q Where is your office?

A My office is 5 Gurley street.

Q You are certain that you saw that fuse when it was not more than six feet above the sidewalk?

A It was not more than six feet---I didn't say the sidewalk.

Q Six feet above the boxes?

A Above the boxes.

Q Did you trace it through the air?

A I did.

Q The bomb was round?

A Yes sir.

Q And that it was not a gas pipe bomb?

A Yes sir.

Q That the fuse did not go in a spiral direction?

A No sir.

Q And that it landed between the first and second ranks of

police?

A Yes sir.

Q You saw all that?

A I saw all that.

Q How long have you been a member of the American Group?

A I suppose about a couple of years.

Q Where did that group meet?

A 54 West Lake street.

Q How often did you go to the meeting of that group?

A Sometimes I would go once in two weeks, sometimes I would not.

Q Well, about how often on an average did you go there?

A Well, once in three or four weeks anyhow.

Q Did you make speeches when you went there?

A Sometimes I did.

Q Took part in the discussion?

A I did.

Q How often did you take part in the discussions?

A Well I can't say---perhaps one third of the time.

Q Were you in the habit of reading the Alarm?

A I did read the Alarm.

Q How long have you read the Alarm?

A I have read the Alarm for twelve months.

Q Did you take it?

A Yes sir.

Q You say you are a socialist but not an anarchist?

A Not an anarchist.

Q In the sense in which people consider the meaning of the term anarchist?

A Yes sir.

Q You are an anarchist in the sense in which you define

the term?

A Yes sir, you will find my definition in the Tribune.

Q I have not that number of the Tribune.

A I have.

Q Did the teachings of the Alarm as to what anarchy meant, the definition given to the word anarchy or to the class called anarchists by the Alarm, did that definition correspond with your ideas of what the anarchists were?

Q You did subscribe for the Alarm?

A I understood anarchism--- (The stenographer here read the last question to the witness.)

A Yes sir.

Q How long were you a subsriber for it?

A Twelve months.

Q Do you believe in government, an organized government?

A I do.

Q Do you believe in the oath in Courts of Justice?

A I do.

Q Do you believe that the oath adds anything to the solemnity, adds anything to what a man should say, or to his obligation to speak the truth?

A I believe a man ought to speak the truth if there was no oath.

Q Does the oath add anything to his obligation to apeak the truth in your mind?

A If he is an honest man he will tell the truth.

Q And the oath adds nothing to his obligation to tell the truth?

A No sir, it does not---if he is an honest man.

Q Does the appeal to the Deity in the oath add anything to a man's obligation to speak the truth in your mind?

Objected to on the ground that it is incompetent and immaterial and not proper cross examination. The Court sustained the objection.

Q Did you, while you were a member of the American Group belong to the armed section of that group?

A No sir. I know nothing about them.

Q Did you yourself ever advocate the use of forse?

A No sir.

Q Did you ever handle any dynamite or dynamite bombs yourself?

A No sir.

Q You never drilled did you?

A No sir.

Q Never had a captain ordering you around?

A No sir, I would be a clumsy hand at it.

Q What is your age?

A Seventy-six.