Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Re-direct examination by Mr. Zeisler. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Stood in Crane's Alley during the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Spies, August (vol.L 218), Schwab, Michael (vol.L 218), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.L 209), Lingg, Louis (vol.L 218), trajectory of the bomb (vol.L 209), learned about the Haymarket meeting in the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.L 206), Central Labor Union (vol.L 213), Carpenters' Union (vol.L 213), Greif's Hall (vol.L 214), Zepf's Hall (vol.L 214), Neebe, Oscar (vol.L 219), socialists and/or socialism (vol.L 220).
Testimony of Friedrich Liebel (first appearance resumed), 1886 Aug. 3.
Volume L, 204-220, 17 p.
Liebel, Friedrich.
Carpenter; German immigrant.
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[Image, Volume L, Page 204]
August 3d, 1886. 10 o'clock A. M.
Court met pursuant to adjournment.
FREDERICK LIEBEL,
Cross Examination by
MR. GRINNELL.
Q Where were you born?
A IN Germany.
Q Where?
A In Luboeck.
Q When did you come to Chicago?
A On the first of April, 1884.
Q Did you come directly to Chicago?
A Yes sir.
Q From the old country?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you first make the acquaintance of Mr. Zeisler, one of the defendant's lawyers?
A About eight days ago.
Q How long have you lived at 234 Townsend street?
A I can't say that exactly--about four or five months.
Q Is it any longer than two months?
A Yes sir, it is longer than two months.
Q Did you move in there with the family?
A No sir, I am not married.
Q I did not say with your family, with the family that you live with--how long has that family lived there?
A They lived there before me.
Q You have been there four months?
A About--I can't tell.
Q You board there?
A Yes sir.
Q Then you lived there at the time of the Haymarket riot?
A Yes sir.
Q Where is 234 Townsend street?
A Clybourne Avenue stops at Division---half a block. west and runs down to Chicago avenue.
Q How far is it from Haymarket square?
A It is about forty or forty-five minutes.
Q You are a carpenter?
A Yes sir.
Q Where did you work on May 4th?
A IN Grister's plaing mill, Grister Company.
Q Where?
A It is on North Avenue.
Q Whereabouts on North Avenue?
A Near the North-western railroad track, north Avenue bridge.
Q Near what?
A Near the North Avenue Bridge.
Q Near the river then?
A Yes sir, the east side of the river.
Q Were you working there on Tuesday, May 4th?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you quit work?
A Five o'clock.
Q Where did you go after quitting work?
A I went home.
Q Directly home?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you know that there was to be a meeting at Haymarket
square before you got home?
A No sir.
Q Did you learn it after you got home?
A Yes sir.
Q From whom?
A I read it in the newspapers.
Q What newspaper?
A A German newspaper. It is called the Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q You took the Arbeiter Zeitung, did you?
A I read it.
Q You found it in there for the first time?
A Yes sir.
Q How long have you been reading the Arbeiter Zeitung, ever since you came to Chicago?
A Yes sir, I read the paper as long as I have been in Chicago---I didn't pay for it. Sometimes I read it and sometimes not, but I subscribed for it on the first of May.
Q When?
A The first of May.
Q First of May, 1886?
A Yes sir.
Q You have taken it off and on, and read it off and on ever since you have been here?
A I read it sometimes before, not all day, but now I read it all day.
Q You subscribed for it on the first day of May?
A Yes sir.
Q How far is 234 Townsend street from 58 Clybourn Avenue?
A About four or five minutes.
Q Whose place is 58 Clybourne Avenue?
A I don't know the proprietors.
Q Do you know what it is--do you know what it is called?
A I believe it is called Thuringer Hall.
Q Did you see any of the printed notices about that meeting before you went to it?
A No, I didn't learn it before.
Q Did you see the revenge circular before you went to the meeting?
A No sir.
Q Did you ever see one?
A I Did not see the circular. I learned it from the paper.
Q How long did you stand by that lamppost?
A About as long as the two first speeches were made.
Q Spies and Parsons?
A Yes sir.
Q When Fielden began to speak where did you move to?
A There was a good deal of a crowd.
Q Answer my question. When Fielden began to speak where did you move to?
A To the middle of the street, about.
Q Out in front of the wagon or in south of it?
A South of it.
Q Inside of the lamp post?
A A little south.
Q South of the lamp post?
A Yes sir.
Q How far south of the lamp post?
A Two feet--- I can't tell.
Q When the police came up did you move up towards the wagon?
A Not towards the wagon, but I moved towards the sidewalk.
Q Were not there some boxes there on that sidewalk?
A I can't tell it.
Q Now where in reference to the lamp post did you strike the sidewalk next when you moved towards the sidewalk from the middle of the street---how many feet south of the lamp post?
A A few feet.
Q How many?
A I can't tell you, a few feet.
Q Five?
A It may be.
Q Don't you know there were a row of boxes all along there for about five or six feet south of that corner, and that you could not get onto the sidewalk--don't you remember that?
A There was room to stand for people.
Q Room enough to stand between the boxes and the edge of the sidewalk?
A Yes sir.
Q Then there were boxes there?
A It may be. I didn't recognize any boxes there. Maybe that there stood boxes.
Q How far south did you come around these boxes to get onto the sidewalk behind the boxes?
A I went directly to the sidewalk and tried to get south to get out of the crowd.
Q Did you move right straight south on the edge of the
sidewalk?
A Yes sir.
Q You saw the bomb in the air, did you?
A Yes sir.
Q Was it directly over your head when you first saw it?
A Not directly, a little in front of me.
Q A little to the south of you?
A Yes sir.
Q What were you doing when you first saw that bomb in the air?
A I was moving south.
Q How fast were you going?
A I was in a hurry.
Q The crowd was moving in a hurry also?
A Yes sir.
Q You were all on the run, weren't you?
A Yes sir.
Q How close were you together there, all crowded thick?
A Pretty tight, pretty thick together.
Q How much space was there in the crowd, how many in the crowd--all clumped intogether and jambed in together close---how many were there clear down to the corner?
A Yes sir, it was crowded.
Q Clear down to the corner?
A Yes sir.
Q When you got to the corner they all scattered?
A No, they came to the west. They run down as I saw west and east on Randolph street.
Q The man who threw the bomb was right in that crowd?
A It must be. I didn't see.
Q How many feet from you where it was thrown?
A It may be four or five feet ahead of me south.
Q All jammed in together just as tight as it could be---that is correct, is it?
A Yes sir.
Q You belong to any socialistic groups?
A No sir.
Q Did you ever?
A No sir.
Q You don't belong to any of them?
A No sir.
Q Tell me what halls it is you have heard Spies speak in. You say you have heard him a great many times since you came here, different places in the City of Chicago--tell me what public places you have heard him?
A I don't remember. I saw him a great many times, several meetings.
Q Where?
A I believe not in any hall.
Q Where?
A I heard him speak on Market square.
Q When?
A The first time I heard him there it was in the fall of 1884.
Q Very soon after you got here?
A Yes sir.
Q The next fall---you got here in April?
A Yes sir.
Q And began to hear these speeches in the fall?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you hear him next?
A Two months about
later.
Q When did you hear him next?
A About two months after that.
Q Then when?
A It was I believe in the end of November.
Q When did you hear him the second time? You heard him in September?
A On Market square.
Q Both times on Market square?
A Yes sir.
Q The third time where did you hear him?
A I can't remember.
Q Where did you hear him the fourth time?
A I believe I did not hear him any other time than the third or fourth.
Q You heard him four times, and don't remember where you heard him the third and fourth time?
A No sir.
Q Did you hear him at the Market Square the night the Board of Trade was opened? You remember the opening of the Board of Trade a year ago now?
A Yes sir.
Q Was that the time you heard him?
A No sir.
Q You didn't hear him down here that time?
A No sir, I wasn't in that meeting. I havn't been in that meeting.
Q Where did you live before you lived at 234 Townsend street?
A In Clybourne Avenue.
Q Where?
A 29.
Q You say you don't know now who kept 58 Clybourne Avenue?
A I say I don't know the proprietor. I believe his name is Neef, but I can't recognize him.
Q You never saw him?
A It may be that I saw him.
Q Do you know the Hermans? Don't you know that there at 29 Clybourne Avenue is where they own?
A I believe there is a bar-keeper who is there in the hall whose name is so---I can't tell for sure.
Q You know Abram Herman, don't you?
A I don't know him, but I heard there was a bar-keeper in that hall.
Q How long did you live at 29 Clybourne Avenue?
A About three months.
Q Where did you live before that?
A Vine street.
Q Where?
A I can't remember that number.
Q How long did you live there?
A I don't know for sure.
Q About how long?
A About through the winter, through the spring.
Q What winter and spring?
A Last winter.
Q 1884, 1885 or 1886?
A Last winter.
Q Near what cross street did you live?
A It is between
North Avenue and Willow Street.
Q Do you belong to the Central Labor Union?
A Not now.
Q When did you?
A A few weeks.
Q A few weeks ago?
A It was before the first of May.
Q You stopped then?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you belong to the International Working man's Association?
A No sir.
Q Do you belong to any socialistic organization?
A No sir.
Q Other than the Central Labor Union?
MR. ZEISLER: He says he don't belong to it.
THE WITNESS: Not now.
MR. GRINNELL: Q What department of the Central Labor Union were you a member of?
A It was the carpenters union. I am a carpenter.
Q Where did it meet?
A It was in the hall on West Lake street.
Q Where?
A I don't know the number exactly.
Q Ever been there?
A Yes, I was there about two times.
Q Does that mean you were there three or four times or one time?
A It may be two or three times.
Q You don't remember the number?
A No sir.
Q Do you know the corner of the street?
A That is near Jefferson, I believe. I don't know where it is. It was Greif's or Florus' Hall. Some hall---I don't know where it is. It was on the left hand side going west.
Q You have heard of Greif's hall?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know where that is on Lake Street?
A No sir, I don't know it for sure.
Q You don't know where Florus' Hall is, do you?
A No sir.
Q You don't know where Zepf's hall is?
A Yes sir.
Q Where is that?
A It is on the corner of Desplaines and Lake.
Q Did your Carpenters' Union meet there?
A Yes, at that time in Zeph's hall.
Q You know where that is then, don't you?
A It was a mass meeting, not a union.
Q It was in the hall up stairs, was it?
A Yes sir.
Q How many times would your carpenters' union meet at Greif's hall?
A About two or three times.
Q 54 West Lake?
A It may be where Greif's hall is---I can't tell whether Florus' hall or Greif's hall.
Q You have been there how many times?
A Two or three times.
Q You don't know the number?
A No sir.
Q You don't know Greif?
A No sir.
Q Never saw him?
A No sir.
Q Never spoke to him?
A No sir.
Q Have been there two or three times?
A Yes sir.
Q You don't know the number of Greif's hall?
A I don't know the number.
Q What is the number of Florus' Hall?
A I don't know.
Q Do you know any of the defendants besides Spies?
A By sight.
Q Did you ever see any of them?
A Yes, some of them.
Q Which one?
A I saw Spies sometimes and Mr. Schwab and Mr. Parsons---that is all.
Q Lingg?
A Yes, I saw Lingg.
Q Fischer?
A No, I don't know Fischer.
Q Engel?
A I don't know Engel.
Q Where did you see Lingg?
A In carpenter's meetings.
Q Where did you see him last---what was the last meeting that you saw him at?
A It was in a hall on Fifth, Avenue, Gruenbaum's hall.
Q You don't know where that is?
A I don't know the number.
Q Where is it on the street?
A It is when I go south it is on the right hand---Gruenbaum's hall it is called.
Q How did you get there the first time you went there?
A I was invited.
Q Somebody took you there?
A No sir.
Q Did you go alone?
A I went alone.
Q How did you get there---how did you know where to go?
A I read it in the paper.
Q Then you did read the number, didn't you?
A Yes sir.
Q What was it?
A I don't know it. I can't remember.
Q Do you belong to any group?
A No sir.
Q Never did?
A No sir. Do you mean armed group?
Q Did I say anything about armed?
A No sir, I didn't hear it. I don't know what you mean by group.
Q I asked you if you belonged to any group?
A No sir.
Q Armed or otherwise called a group?
A No sir.
Q Group of Internationalists?
A No sir.
Q Or the Central Labor Union?
A No sir.
Q Now, do you belong to any armed group?
A No sir.
Q You don't belong to the Lehr und Wehr Verein?
A No sir.
Q You have been in this country two years and four months?
A Yes sir.
Q Whom do you live with on Vine street?
A Alone.
Q Did you room in the house, occupy the whole house alone, or room in somebody else's house?
A Furnished room.
Q Furnished room in a house or block?
A In a house.
Q Who occupied the house?
A I don't know the proprietor.
Q Who is the landlord---who did you rent it of?
A I don't know him. I lived by a family who was renting there.
Q What is the family's name?
A I can't remember. I believe he is called Goldhammer.
Q How do you spell it?
A G-o-l-d-h-a-m-m-e-r.
Q Whereabouts on Vine street was that place?
A I believe I made a mistake there. Did I say "H"?
Q Yes sir.
A Goldhammer has got an "H" in it.
Q Tell us where on Vine street it was--near what other street?
A Between North Avenue and Willow street.
Q What was the number of that place?
A I can't remember that number.
Q How long were you there?
A About through the
winter---went in last fall.
Q Have you ever been in jail to see any of the defendants since they were arrested?
A Yes sir.
Q How many times?
A Last Friday.
Q Whom did you see and talk with?
A I saw Mr. Lingg, Mr. Schwab and Mr. Spies.
Re-direct examination by
MR. ZEISLER.
Q When did you join the carpenters' Union?
A It was on the last days of April.
Q How long were you a member of the carpenter's union?
A A few weeks only.
Q So at that time you were indirectly a member of the Central Labor Union, and at no other time?
A Yes sir.
Q Were you a delegate to the Central Labor Union at any time?
A No sir.
Q You know Florus' hall when you see it, and you know Greif's hall when you see it, but you don't know the number?
A No sir, I don't know where the hall is.
Q Would you recognize it when you go by Lake street, when you pass it?
A Scarcely.
Q You said you knew a bar-keeper by the name of Herman--- a bar-keeper in what saloon?
A Not personally, only by sight.
Q Where is the bar-keper--in what saloon?
A He was there at that time. He was there a bar-keper this spring.
Q In what saloon was the bar-keeper?
A In Thuringer hall, 58.
Q You don't know a man by the name of Herman who lives at 29 Clybourne Avenue?
A I scarcely can recognize him---he lives up stairs, but I didn't take care of him.
MR. GRINNELL: Q He lives up stairs?
A I was told he lives up stairs.
MR. ZEISLER: Q You say you attended two or three meetings of the carpenters' union in a hall on Lake street. Do you remember whether that hall was on the north side of the street or on the south side of the street?
A It was south.
Q On the south side of the street?
A Yes.
MR. GRINNELL: Q You know Neebe?
A Yes, by sight.
Q Haven't you ever talked with him?
A No sir.
Q Never said a word to him?
A No sir.
Q How long have you known him by sight?
A A short time only.
Q What do you mean by that?
A A few weeks.
Q Two weeks, three weeks or four weeks?
A About four weeks.
Q Where was he when you first got sight of him?
A I saw him first at a picnic.
Q Where at---at Ogden's grove?
A In the Sharp-Shooter's Park?
Q When?
A It was a few weeks ago---there was a picnic.
Q Socialistic picnic?
A Yes sir.
Q That was a socialistic picnic to raise money for the defense?
A Yes sir. It stated in the paper, and I went there.
Q You saw that in the Arbeiter Zeitung?
A Yes sir.
Q You saw Neebe there?
A Yes sir.
Q How do you know it was Neebe---who told you it was Neebe?
A Some bystanders told me that was Mr. Neebe.
Q Did you go up and speak with him?
A No sir.
Q Did you ever speak with him?
A No sir.
MR. ZEISLER: Q Did you ever have a conversation with Lingg?
A Only one time?
Q Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Schwab to speak with him---I mean before you saw him last Friday at the jail?
A No sir, not with Mr. Lingg and not with Mr. Schwab, only last Friday I saw them.
Q I speak of the time previous to that---did you ever have conversations with Mr. Spies prior to that?
A No sir.