Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Captain Black. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. People's Exhibit 129 a&b (vol.K 519) introduced into evidence. Arrested Louis Lingg and then searched his room. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.K 516), items confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office or the defendants' homes (vol.K 519), Lingg, Louis (vol.K 515), arrest of Lingg (vol.K 515), Louis Lingg and bomb-making (vol.K 518), People's Exhibit 129 a&b (vol.K 519). HERMAN SCHUTTLER:, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people was examined in chief by Mr. Ingham and testified as follows: Q What is you name? A Hermann Schuttler. Q What is your business? A Police officer. Q Did you arrest the defendant Lingg? A I did. Q Where? A At No 80 Ambrose street. Q When did you arrest him? A The 14th day of last May. Q Tell the jury the whole story of the arrest?
Testimony of Herman Schuettler, 1886 July 28.
Volume K, 515-529, 15 p.
Schuettler, Herman.
Officer, Chicago Police Department.
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[Image, Volume K, Page 515]
Objected to; objection overruled and exception by defendants.
Q Where was he when you arrested him?
Q He was in a room
Q In a room where?
A No 80 Ambrose street.
Q Where is that street?
A It is one block west of the black road and Blue island avenue
Q Down in the south west part of the city?
A Yes sir.
Q About how far southwest from the court house, the center of the city?
A About four miles-- three miles and a half.
Q What kind of house was it?
A A cottage.
Q What room was it in in the cottage?
A In the back room, the kitchen.
Q How did you get into the room
A Followed in after him.
Q Tell what took place after you got into the room?
A I went into the room, and took him for another man. I had a picture of him and he was decsribed to as a man with chin whiskers and a moustache. I had found out that he lived there, and I said; "How do you do Mr. Klein". As soon as I said that he jumped back and drew a revolver and half cocked it
Q Who did?
A Lingg?.
Q Have you got that revolver?
A It is in the possession of Captain Schaack.
Q Look at this (showing witness revolver)?
A Yes, that is the revolver. I have my mark on it there.
Q You have seen the revolver before to day?
A Yes sir.
Q This is the revolver?
A Yes sir. I grabbed the revolver and him and fell down on the floor together, and we struggled for the possession of it. Whenever the revolver would be to- towards me, he would try his best to shoot it off.
At last he began to get it cocked again, and the only way I could do then, I got his thumb into my mouth and bit it, and he hollered; but at that time officer Lowenstein came in and pulled him off.
Q What happened after that?
A We put him under arrest; and at first he resisted to go along, and I wanted him to come along, and he said, "I refuse to be schackled", and finally got my comealongs on him, and he went along. I took him to Hinman street station, and left him there a while and went back to search the house.
Q Before you got the come-alongs on him, while you were trying to get them on him what did he say?
A He said, "shoot and kill me".
Q Is that all he said?
A Yes sir.
Q Give the whole conversation?
A He said: "You can shoot. Says I:" If you don't stop now we will have to do something? He tried to get the gun again and he said "I wish you would shoot me".
Q Do you remember anything else he said?
A I don't recollect.
Q On you way to the station did you have any conversation with him?
A Not on the way to Hinman street station
Q Where was he taken from the Hinman street station?
A To Chicago avenue station.
Q Did you have any conversation with him on the way to
Chicago avenue station?
A I said to him; "What did you want to kill me for so very bad"? I said; "We aint such bad sort of fellows". He said "Personally, I have nothing against you, but if I had killed you and your partner, I would have been satisfied.
Q Did he say anything about shooting himself?
A He said; "I would have killed myself if I had got away with you and your partner".
Q After you had taken him to Chicago avenue station, did you go to his room on Sedgwick street?
A No sir, I went there previous to that.
Q That was previous?
A Yes sir.
Q What time did you go there?
A I went there the 7th of May.
Q What time in the day?
A I went there close about eleven o'clock.
Q Whom did you go with?
A I went with officer Stift, Lowenstein and Whalen.
Q After you got there, what did you find?
A At that time I did not find anything. I didn't go in the house then.
Q When did you go in the house?
A About three o'clock in the afternoon.
Q What did you find when you went on the house?
A We searched a trunk and found a round lead bomb in a stocking.
Photograph of bomb referred to marked Peopl's Ex. 129.
Q In that trunk?
A Yes sir.
Q Where was that trunk, in what room.
A It was in the south-east room.
Q What else did you find there besides that bomb?
A In another stocking I found a large navy revolver.
Q Look at the revolver which I show you now (showing witness revolver)?
A Yes, that is the revolver.
Q What did you do with the bomb you found there?
A I turned it over to Captain Schaack.
Q Describe how this bomb and this revolver were-- what condition was the revolver in
Q They were loaded.
Q Both of them?
A Yes sir.
Q What else did you find in the house where Lingg had boarded or lived?
A I didn't find anything else besides that, except this in the line of weapons. I was there when we found a ladle and some tools, a coal chisel and all of those articles.
Q Look at the ladel which I now show you?
A Yes sir we found that ladle.
Q Where did you find this ladle?
A In his room.
Q In the bed-room?
A Yes sir.
Q DiD you notice the condition of the closet in the bed-room?
A I was not in there at first. I was not the first officer in there. Things were kind of upside down., when I got there.
Q Did you take any charges out of this gun today?
A Yes sir.
Q How many?
A twelve.
Q Look at the trunk which is placed before you-- is that the trunk you found in Louis Lingg's room?
A Yes sir.
Q Were those letters "L.L" on it at that time?
A Yes.
Q Did you take anything out of the trunk yourself?
A Oh, Yes sir.
Q What?
A I took out the bomb and the stocking.
Q Where abouts was it?
A It was right at the bottom.
Q Where was the revolver?
A The revolver was lying right there, right about there (Witness indicates the position in the trunk).
Q Were there others taking things out of the trunk?
A Not at the time I was taking that out.
Q What other officers were there at that time?
A At the time I found that bomb?
Q Yes sir.
Q There was nobody there when I found the bomb.
Officer Stift was there when I found the revolver.
Q You say you found certain tools there in that room?
A Yes.
Q What were the tools?
A There was a a chisel there,.
Q What kind of chisel?
A A kind of cold chisel. And I believe a file. There was a round porcelain lined blue cup, kind of round cup, made out of china I should judge. That is all I recollect that I found.
Q In what condition was the closet in when you saw it?
A When I seen the closet, things were a little torn up. Clothes were hanging on the wall.
Q Did you notice the base board?
A Yes sir. We seen the base board-- it was on the sides right on top of the baseboard, it looked like it had been tampered with.
Q Did you move the baseboard yourself?
A I helped move it.
Q What did you find underneath it?
A Found a lot of torn off plaster.
Q Anything torn off besides plaster?
A No sir.
Q How about the lathing?
A The lathing was sawed so you could get your hand between the floor, and between the bottom of the laths underneath and
the floor above.
Q Both the plaster and lathing was gone?
A The lathing was not gone. It was sawed off. It did not reach down to the floor.
Q Look at this cup which I show you, a metal cup-- I suppose it is metal?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you find that there?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you find anything in it?
A No sir, nothing in it.
Q You say you found this yourself?
A Well, there was two police there when that was found. I remember that file there and also that chisel. Those others I do not.
Q This file and that chisel you remember?
A Yes sir.
Q You seen them there?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you remember any other things?
A I remember the hammer.
Q Where were those things?
A I Linggs room.
Q Look at the things in these boxes and see if you recognize any of those? (shows witness box)
A I saw that in Lingg's romm.
Q Did you see it there at the house before it was taken
to the station?
A I saw those lead pipes laying between Lingg's house, the house Lingg lived in, and the next house to it, in a small gang way there.
A JUROR: Were the baseboards in the closet whitewashed?
A I could not state that, whether they were whitewashed or painted.
Mr. FOSTER: They were white were they, white color?
A Yes, they were white color.
Defendants' counsel moved the exclusion of testimony of this witness as irrelevant and immaterial; which motion was denied by the court.
To which ruling of the court counsel for defendants then and there excepted.
CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. Black.
Q What was the room that you speak of as Lingg's room where you found these various traps?
A Well, it was the room leading in front towards the south.
Q In what building?
A At 442 Sedgwick street.
Q Lingg was not occupying that room at the tome?
A He was not there at the time.
Q What place was that if you know?
A I know who owned the house.
Mr. GRINELL: Look at the bomb I now show you. State if you can
identify that?
A Yes sir.
Q Were these pieces taken out of it when you found it or was it whole?
A It was whole. I unloaded it myself.
Mr. BLACK: Whose house was this?
A The house belongs to a man by the name of Schwartz.
Q Who was living there at the time?
A On that flat, Mr. Seliger.
Q When was it you made this examination in this room you call Linggs' room?
A On the 7th of May.
Q You found there all these things which you identified, did you?
A Yes sir.
Q You went through the trunk?
A Yes sir.
Q And found a revolver and bomb?
A Yes sir.
Q In the bottom of the trunk, a revolver in the top and a bomb in the bottom?
A Yes sir.
Q Were there any other things there, clothes?
A Yes sir, there were socks, envelopes and different traps there. I don't recollect now.
Q Various things?
A Yes sir.
Q Including clothing and stationary?
A Yes sir, and washing and such as that.
Q Did you have any search warrant at that time for the purpose of going through Linggs' things?
A No sir.
Q Did you have any warrant for Linggs arrest at the time you went into Lingg's room on the 14th day of May and arrested him?
A No sir, he did not give me time.
Q Did Lingg demand whether you had a warrant?
A No sir I never spoke to him.
Q Didn't speak to you on that subject at all?
A No sir; he never gave me a chance to explain who I was.
Q What I want to know is whether or not he demanded of you a warrant.
A No sir.
Q Did you have citizens clothes on at that time?
A I did.
Q Can you talk German?
A I can.
Q Did you talk German to Lingg the day you arrested him.
A Yes sir.
Q When you first entered the room, what was the first thing that you said?
A I said: "How do you do, Mr. Klein".
Q Didn't you ask in English if his name was Lingg?
A No sir.
Q If this man's name was not Lingg?
A I don't recoleect that I did.
Q Are you certain about that?
A I may have.
Q Didn't Lingg then refer you to Mrs. Klein, saying he could not talk English?
A No sir.
Q Nothing of that sort took palce?
A No sir.
Q Wasn't Mrs. Klein there at the time?
A I didn't see her
the second time I went in there.
Q You had been in there before?
A Yes sir.
Q How long before was it you had been in his room there?
A About twenty or twenty- five minutes.
Q Do you remember whether you gave your name to Lingg at the time?
A No sir.
Q Whom had you seen on the first visit?
A Mrs Klein.
Q Had you said anything to Mrs. Hlein as to who you were or what you were after?
A I told her I would like to see Mr. Lingg.
Q Did you give your name to Mr. Klein as Lorenz of Burling street?
A I did.
Mr. GRINELL: Q Did you give the full name?
A Yes sir.
Q What was it?
A Franz Lorenz.
Mr. BLACK: Q Franz Lorenz of Burling street?
A Yes sir.
Q How long did the tussle you and Lingg had there on the floor last?
A I could not state that. I should judge about a minute and a half or two minutes.
Q Did you talk German to Lingg that day?
A I did, Yes sir.
Q When did you begin to talk German to him?
A I talked German as soon as he gave me a chance to talk.
Q When was that?
A As soon as we had him under control.
Q As soon as your brother officer came in and the two of you got him under control, you began to talk German?
A Yes sir.
Q Did Lingg say anything about the right of every man to defend himself?
A Not at that time.
Q When did he speak on that subject?
A He spoke on that subject on the wagon.
Q As you were taking him to the station?
A Yes sir.
Q He then claimed every man had the right to defend himself?
A Yes sir.
Q didn't he say it in relation to his defense of himself in the room when you were attempting to arrest him?
A No sir, he did not say that, not exactly that. I said, "what do you want to make such a terrible fight for"? He said "I believe in every man defending himself, and not let any body take him.
Q Did he make that statement in connection with his resistence of your attempt to arrest him?
A Yes sir.
Q You knew at the time you went to Seliger's house that Lingg was a carpenter, didn't you?
A I didn't know it at the time I went there. I found it out since.
Q Did it strike you as remarkable that you should find
in a carpenter's room a chisel, a file, a hammer, and a saw set?
A No sir. not remarkable.
Q These deadly weapons produced here is an ordinary saw set such as used by carpenters for the purpose of setting saws?
A Yes sir.
Q Have you any idea what this cup could be used for?
A No sir.
Q It is porcelain lined?
A I think it is.
Q Did it occur to you that a man might heat shaving water in it?
A It never appearded to me what he might use it for.
Q Or somebody might hear milk in it?
A You could use it for various things.
Q You never heard of people using porcelain lined vessels with soldered bottoms for the purpose of fusing lead in?
A No sir, I don't know anything about that.
Q That is soldered on there is it not it?
A I don't know whether it is soldered or not.
Q Those are all the things you found personally I understand you, except the man's clothing and stationary in Lingg's room.
A Yes sir.
Q You took to the station this trunk of Lingg's did you?
A I did not.
Q Who did, If you know?
A I don't know.
Q Do you know whether any clothing or stationary was taken
out of the trunk at the time or do you know whether it was carried with the rest of the find?
A I could not state that. I was not there at the time.
Q How long have you been in connection with the detective service in Chicago?
A On the force three years and a half; have been dong detective work two years and a half.