Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Interviewed Spies, Fielden and Schwab after their arrests. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.J 309), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.J 337), "Revenge" circular (vol.J 307), "Revenge" circular (vol.J 331), "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.J 307), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.J 310), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.J 314), Zepf's Hall (vol.J 326), arrangements made for the Haymarket meeting (vol.J 320), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.J 340), trajectory of the bomb (vol.J 324), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.J 325), the American Group (vol.J 311), Spies' version of the Haymarket events (vol.J 307), Schwab's version of the events of May 4, 1886 (vol.J 310), Fielden's version of the Haymarket events (vol.J 311).

a witness for the People, having been duly sworn, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A. W. M. Knox.

Q You are a newspaper reporter?

A Yes, sir.

Q Connected with the Daily News?

A Yes, sir.

Q How long have you been connected with that paper?

A About three years.

Q You remember the 4th of May last?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you see Spies or any others of the defendants after their arrest? On the 5th of May?

A I saw Mr. Spies and Mr. Fielden and Mr. Schwab on the 5th of May, the night of the 5th.

Q Did you have any conversation with them?

A Yes, sir.

Q In the presence of whom?

A In the presence of Mr. Graham the Times reporter, and a part of the time Detective Bonfield.

Q State what the conversation you had with Mr. Spies was?

Objected to in behalf of all the defendants, and particularly in behalf of the seven other than Mr. Spies, this being a conversation occurring after the alleged offence.

THE COURT: Well, it has no effect except upon the party

that was talking, or anybody else who was present assenting.

Mr. GRINNELL: Go on and tell me in a general way.

A We asked Mr. Spies something about his personal history, I believe, and after he had finished that we asked him what he had to say about the trouble he had gotten into, and he said that he wanted to know first of what he was accused. And he asked us if we could tell him what the Coronor's Jury had done. We told him that the Coronor's jury had hold him to the Grand Jury without bail on the charge of murder. And he hesitated a short time and then said that he did not understand how they could do that. He said that he had nothing to do with throwing the bomb. He said he did not want to to go to the Haymarket meeting and when he got there he did not want to make a speech. He said he told Schwab so. He said when he did speak he made a quieting speech, told the people that the time had not come for action. He said that he urged them to keep thoroughly organized, and to be prepared for the time when action should be necessary. We asked him about the Revenge circular. He said that he did not know where that was printed. Then we asked him about the call of this Haymarket meeting, the dodger or hand bill. He said that he did not know either where that was printed. He said that some one came to the office; I think he said came to the office.-- anyway, some one showed him one in the afternoon; he

did not know who that person was. We questioned him closely about that. He said that he saw the sentence in the hand-bill calling upon working men to come armed to the meeting and he insisted that that should be taken out. He said he had this man go and take it out.

He said that this was in the afternoon, did he?

A Yes, sir.

Q What time in the afternoon, if you remember, that he said this?

A Well, I don't think he mentioned the hour. He said the man went and had it taken out. Then we questioned him about the meeting. He said that he was standing on the wagon shortly before the bomb exploded. A little before the bomb exploded he got off the wagon. We asked him why he got off. And he said some one told, him to get down. We questioned him quite closely about that, and at first he said he could not tell who it was; and also that he could not remember the exact words. Finally he says that the person said "Get down now". Then we questioned him further about the name of the person, and he finally said that his name was William Legner, or Lechner.

Q Did he describe the man as to who it was finally when he gave the name -- as to how he came to know it, what society he blonged to, or anything of that character, so as to make his identity?

A I think that he said that he did not know anything about him, only that his brother had been

an employe on the Democrat, General Lieb's -- the paper that Gen. Lieb had published some time before.

Q Do you remember anything more of that conversation Mr. Knox? Well, we talked with him some time, and we asked him -- I remember he said that when the bomb exploded he went to Zepf's hall, and there he said that he thought -- he said the explosion of the bomb was a surprise to him; he thought the police had opened up on the crowd with artillery, and he ran to Zepf's Hall; there he found Mrs. Parsons waiting for her husband. He said some one there told him that a bomb had exploded; he could not tell who that person was; he said he could not. He staid at the Hall for a short time and then went home, he said. We asked him about dynamite in his office; he said that he had a couple of giant powder cartridges there and some fuse, for the purpose of showing them to reporters, when they came to ask about them; and he said that that was all the dynamite that there was in the office so far as he knew. And we told him that the police had found a half a bushel or more there; and he said "Well, of course our office is more war-like than some"; but he says, "I don't know everything that is in it". He told us something about the manufacture of bombs; he said he was familiar with the way they were manufactured. I think he said he was -- the most of the information he had about the bombs, though, he acquired from reading. We asked him about the editorials--

we called them inflammatory editorials I believe at the time. We asked him about those, and he said that he hadn't written any editorials for several weeks, I don't recall.

Q Was anything said by him as to the direction he took when he left the wagon going to Zepf's Hall?

A I don't remember that.

Q Did you have any talk with Schwab?

A Yes, sir.

Q What was your conversation with him?

A Well, we asked him first about his personal history.

And then in the course of that he said that he had first been a reporter on the Arbeitor Zeitung, and afterwards became sub-editor. He said that he had written of late the greater part of the editorials, and had written some of these editorials which were called inflammatory at the time. We asked him if Spies had written any and he said he had. He said he had written quite a number within the last week or two.

Mr. FOSTER: Now, what does the Court say to that testimony.

THE COURT: It is not evidence. The two are not together when you are talking with them, as I understand.

THE WITNESS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Well, what either said is no evidence except

as to himself. What one said about the other is no evidence against the other.

MR. FOSTER: Well, we move to strike it out.

THE COURT: I cannot strike out any of the conversation. But it is not to be regarded except as to the person that was talking.

Mr. GRINNELL: Well, Mr. Knox, proceed, please.

A He said that in what he had written for the paper he had urged working men to arm, but he denied that he had ever urged him to use dynamite, if I remember correctly. Our conversation with him was not so long as that one with Spies. He didn't say very much more, that I remember.

Q Did you see or talk with Fielden?

A Yes, sir.

Q What conversation, if any do you remember he had with him.

Same objection in behalf of the defendants and particularly in behalf of the seven others than Fielden. Objection overruled. Exception by defendants.

A Mr. Fielden(s conversation, if I remember correctly, was mostly about the American Group. He said he belonged to that Group and told us that it met at the Arbeiter Zeitung office on the night og May 4th; he said he saw a call for a meeting of the American Group. I think he said for the purpose of organizing the sewing girls into a Union. He went

down to that meeting and when there heard of the Haymarket meeting and went over there. He said he was speaking at the time that the police appeared at the meeting. And he told us that he said to the Captain, "We are peaceable", or "We are a peaceable meeting. I don't remember which. He told us the route he took after the bomb exploded; he went in various directions of street cars -- came down by the Arbeiter Zeitung office, to see if any of his friends were there; he found it all dark and he went back again. I think he said he heard firing and changed his course again. And finally went down to the corner of, I think, 12th Street -- had his wound dressed and from there went home. He said he took an Indiana car after he passed the Arbeiter Zeitung office -- took an Indiana car on Randolph, for the purpose of going out to see Parsons; when he got somewhere near the Haymarket he hard firing and saw a crowd, and then he turned and took a Canalport car, I believe, and went south.

Q Have you had any other conversation with these defendants, or any of them, in jail, or other places since then that you remember of?

A I don't think I have.

Q You were not at the Haymarket that night?

A No, sir.

Q Mr. Knox you were a reporter you say of the News at that time?

A Yes, sir.

Q And the first defendant that you conversed with, as I understand, was Mr. Spies?

A Yes, sir.

Q And what other reporter did you say joined in this conversation?

A Mr. Graham of the Times was present.

Q And Mr. Bonfield, Captain Bonfield, was present?

A He was present the greater part of the time while we were talking.

Mr. GRINNELL: Not Captain Bonfield.

THE WITNESS: No, Detective Bonfield; he was present the greater part of the time we were talking with Spies. I do not think that he was present much of the time that we were talking with the other two.

Mr. FOSTER: Well, he was within hearing distance, was he? He heard what was said?

A I don't think he did, all the time.

Q Well, what did you say about hearing the most that was said?

A He heard most that Spies said.

Q The most that Mr. Spies said?

A At least I judge that he did.

Q Now, in that conversation with Mr. Spies at that time

as you learned from his conversation, he did not know of the character of the charge that had been brought against him?

A I don't know whether he did or not.

Q I say, judging from his conversation you would infer that he did not know. He asked you what charge, what had been done by the Coroner's jury and what the charge was?

A He asked us what the Coronor's Jury had done, yes sir.

Q And then you imparted to him the fact that the Grand Jury had recommended that he be held without bail, for muder.

A I told him that was what the Grand Jury had done.

Q I mean the coroner's jury?

A The Coroner's Jury, yes.

Q Yes, at that time. This was what day?

A This was Wednesday, May 5th, in the evening.

Q The day following the Haymarket meeting?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, I understand you to say in that connection that he said that he did not want to speak at that meeting.

A He said so, yes, sir.

Q That he believed that he was opposed to that meeting at the particular time -- that is, immediately following the McCormick meeting riots, you understood he had reference to.

A I did not understand that.

Q Do you know that the night before, on Monday night,

or Monday afternoon, there had been a riot near McCormick's factory?

A I think I knew that, yes.

Q You were well aware of that fact, I suppose.

A Yes.

Q Did that come under your investigation as a reporter or did you read it as a matter of news?

A I think I read it as a matter of news.

Q You did not report it yourself?

A No sir.

Q But you were aware of that. Now, he said that during the day before this meeting at the Haymarket there had been brought this dodger, as newspaper men call it, I suppose, the small hand-bill, and that he stated that he wanted that last clause stricken out, -- didn't he say that he said that he would not speak at a meeting, at that meeting, unless the hand-bills were printed which did not contain that clause?

A He did not say that, no, sir.

Q He did not say that?

A No, sir.

Q Did he in that conversation say that the bills were brought to his office before being distributed? That he objected to that clause, recommending or suggesting that the workingmen come armed, and that afterwards other bills were printed? Did he say anything about that?

A He said that some one -- he did not know who -- brought one of the bills to him.

Q Brought one of them?

A At least that is the way

I understood him.

Q That is the way you understood it?

Now do you remember it now, just as he said it?

A I think I do.

Q So then you say now, that he did not say that they brought the bills?

A I don't think that he said that.

Q Had you been at the Arbeiter Zeitung office before that day, before having this conversation with Mr. Spies?

A I think I had been by there, I don't know that I was in there.

Q Had you been in the detective office at the station before you went in to have this conversation with Mr. Spies?

A Yes, sir, I went through the office to get there.

Q Now, while you were in the office did you see a couple thousand hand-bills of this character with this recommendation that the workingmen come armed?

A No, sir.

Q You did not see that?

A No, sir.

Q You had not at the time you had this conversation with Mr. Spies seen them? And so, you say now, that you have no recollection at the time of this conversation of Mr. Spies saying that he had protested against that line and refused to speak unless it was erased, and other bills printed that did not contain it?

A He said that he insisted that that clause should be taken out. But he did not say anything

about refusing to speak if it should not be taken out.

Q But he said that he did not want to speak, and after he went there he did not want to speak, as I undorstand you?

A Yes, sir.

Q And that when it was insisted upon that he should speak, that he made a speech which was conciliatory and had a tendancy to control the passions of the working men.

A The word he used was "quieting"; he said he made a "quieting" speech.

Q A quieting speech?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, Mr. Knox, were you at the Haymarket?

A No, sir.

Q You were not there?

A No, sir.

Q The character, then, of the speech that was made by Mr. Spies did not come under your observation as a reporter.

A No, sir.

Q So you have no knowledge of the character of the speach that he did make?

A No, sir.

Q Did you write up the interview with Mr. Spies?

A I believe I did, yes.

Q Was it published as you wrote it -- that is, substantially as you wrote it?

A I think what was published was what I wrote; I would not say whether I wrote more than what was published or not.

Q But all that published as the interview was written by you?

A I think so.

Q It might be cut some?

A Yes.

Q But was not added to, you think, by anybody?

A I don't think it was.

Q I suppose your memory was decidedly clear on what had occurred in this conversation at the time you wrote the article?

A I presume it was fairly fresh.

Q More so than now, of course?

A I presume so.

Q You recognize the fact, of course, that time commits ravages upon our recollection as well as upon various other things?

A I suppose it does.

Q Mr. Spies, you say, said that he could prove by Mr. Schwab that he opposed going to the meeting?

A He said he told Schwab that he did not want to speak at the meeting, if I remember right.

Q Well, didn't he say about telling others that he didn't want to speak?

A My recollection is that he said that he could prove by a number that he did not want to go to the meeting.

Q How long has it been since you read what was published in the News of what you wrote on that occasion?

A I think I looked it over, hunted up and re-read it some time last week.

Q You haven't it there I suppose in your hand?

A No, sir, I have not.

Q Now I will ask you whether or not the statment of Mr. Spies was not "I can show you by at least a dozen that I disapproved of holding the meeting"?

A That is what it reads, yes.

Q I don't ask you what it reads, I ask you what Spies said?

A Well I think it is possible he may have said that.

Q Your opinion now, is then that that is what he said? That he could show by a dozen that he was opposed to speaking? Did he say anything else about what he would have done if he had anticipated that violence would have occurred there?

A Well, the said that if he had known what the result of the meeting would be he said he would have prevented the meeting, if I recollect right.

Q Didn't he use this language "If I had known how it would have resulted I would have prevented its being held at all hazards"?

A I think probably he did if it is in there.

Q That was about the language that he used. And then also added that he did not want to go there and speak, and that he told Schwab so?

A Yes, sir.

Q That is your recollect on of what he said? isn't it?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, did he say anything about McCormick meeting or the condition of excitement that existed in the public

Q Now I will ask you whether or not the statment of Mr. Spies was not "I can show you by at least a dozen that I disapproved of holding the meeting"?

A That is what it reads, yes.

Q I don't ask you what it reads, I ask you what Spies said?

A Well I think it is possible he may have said that.

Q Your opinion now, is then that that is what he said? That he could show by a dozen that he was opposed to speaking? Did he say anything else about what he would have done if he had anticipated that violence would have occurred there?

A Well, the said that if he had known what the result of the meeting would be he said he would have prevented the meeting, if I recollect right.

Q Didn't he use this language "If I had known how it would have resulted I would have prevented its being held at all hazards"?

A I think probably he did if it is in there.

Q That was about the language that he used. And then also added that he did not want to go there and speak, and that he told Schwab so?

A Yes, sir.

Q That is your recollect on of what he said? isn't it?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, did he say anything about McCormick meeting or the condition of excitement that existed in the public

Q Now, I will ask you whether or not, the statement of Mr. Spies was not, "I can show by at least a dozen that I disapproved of holding the meeting?"

A That is what it reads, yes.

Q I don't ask you what it reads. I ask you what Spies said?

A Well, I think it is possible he may have said that.

Q Your opinion now, is then that that is what he said? --That he could show by a dozen that he was opposed to speaking? Did he say anything else about what he would have done is he had anticipated that violence would have occurred there?

A Well, he said that if he had known what the result, of the meeting would be he said he would have prevented the meeting, if I recollect right.

Q Didn't he use this language?" If I had known how it would have resulted I would have prevented its being held at all hazards?

A I think probably he did, if it is in there.

Q That was about the language that he used. And then also added that he did not want to go there and speak, and that he told Schwab so?

A Yes sir.

Q That is your recollection of what he said, isn't it?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, did he say anything about the McCormick meeting or the condition of excitement that existed in the public mind among the workingmen on account of what had occurred at McCormick's factory?

A I think he said that when some one called out "Hang McCormick", or "Kill McCormick", something of that kind, he said that the time

was not the proper time, or the time had not come to do that.

Q Well, that is not the question? In this interview with you, did he say anything about the condition of the public mind previous to the Haymarket meeting, that you remember?

A I think it very likely that he did, but I do not recall now.

Q Now I want to ask you whether or not he did not use this language in this interview: "I thought in the present excitement there might be trouble and that it would not be beneficial either to me or to the cause?"

A Yes, I think he did.

Q He stated that to you in this interview? Then he followed that up by stating that "I went to the meeting and made a quieting speech?"

A He said that, yes.

Q Didn't he also tell you that he did not believe at that time, and that he did not then believe that the time for action had come?

A He said that he did not think the time for action had come, yes.

Q And didn,t he say it in these words: "I said the time had not come for action." Didn,t he say that the calling of that meeting was ill-advised in his opinion, and that he considered it so when he first heard it?

A I don,t remember that he did.

Q You don,t remember anything on that subject?

A I don,t remember that he used those words or anything that meant the same.

Q Wasn't that the idea? That he was opposed to it--he did not believe it was advisable to have it, that he thought the calling of it was ill-advised?

A Well, that meaning is implied in what I have already testified to, that he was opposed to the meeting, but I don't think that he used those words.

Q Perhaps not exactly the words that I have used. Now, did you have any conversation with Mr. Spies on that occasion as to the object of that meeting at the Haymarket, as he understood it?

A I don't remember that I did.

Q Well, I want to jog your recollection a little, and I ask you whether there was anything said as to whether the meeting was expected to be a peaceable meeting or whether it was a meeting the object of which was to incite a riot?

A He said that he in his speech--he said he told the people that the meeting was not called to incite a riot, yes.

Q Did he say that he said that in the speech, or did he say that to you?

A I think he said he said that in the speech.

Q Now, I will ask you whether this is not the language that he used, talking to you? "That the meeting was not called to incite a riot", --"I said the meeting was not called to incite a riot." That is his language. You intended to express by that sentence that he stated to the meeting--he said that he said that in the meeting, at the meeting in his speech?

A Yes, that is my recollection.

Q It was not called for the purpose of inciting riot?

A But I didn't read that.

Q And that then someone in the crowd shouted out, "Hang McCormick" or some such an expression as that, and he replied to that that the time had not come when such expressions as that should be used, or something to that effect?

A Something to that effect, yes.

Q Then he says that he told the people to organize and keep together but the time for action had not come?---That in substance?

A Yes.

Q He said it was a quiet meeting, didn't he, peaceable quiet meeting?

A I think he said that it was not a---yes, I think he did say something of that kind. I would not undertake to recall the words.

Q How long did Mr. Spies say--how long did he say that he got down from the wagon before the explosion of the bomb?

A Wel, he either said it was just before, or a moment before, something to that effect.

Q Just a moment before? Now, was there anything said as to whether or not the police were forming and marching upon the meeting at the time he got down?

A I don't remember that there was.

Q Now, didn't he say that at the time that this man whom he gave his name as Legner, or something of that kind, came to him and told him to get down, that at that time he looked around and discovered that the police were marching upon the meeting, or forming down in the station-house?

A He did not say that, no sir.

Q He said nothing about the police in that connection?

A Not in that connection, not that I remember of.

Q During the entire interview, he said nothing about the police already marching toward the meeting at the time that he got down from the wagon?

A No sir.

Q Did he say that they were not, or didn't he say anything?

A He didn't say anything that i remember of.

Q Well, he was there at the time of the explosion of the bomb, was he not?

A He was there, yes.

Q He was there or thereabouts?

A Yes sir.

Q And he said that he was of the opinion and believed when he heard the bomb explode that the police had opened upon the crowd with artillery?

A He said he thought that was what it was, yes sir.

Q You gave his language just as near as you remembered it at the time, did you---that is, I mean you published it? Your report contained his language just as nearly as you could remember it at the time?

A Yes sir, consistent with getting it in as short a space as I had to put it.

Q Did he say anything about being surprised or not being surprised at the violence that was used there?

A He said he was surprised when the bomb expioded. I think that was the only time he said he was surprised.

Q He said that at the time of the explosion of the bomb, it was a perfect surprise to him?

A I think so.

Q And in that connection he said that he thought the police had opened on the crowd with artillery. Now, did he say where he went immediately after the explosion of the bomb?

(At the request of the court the question so far as the word "Artillery" was read and the witness asked to answer.)

THE COURT: Whether he said it in that connection.

A I think I answered that Yes.

MR. FOSTER: He said then the shooting began and he ran to Zepf's saloon?

A Yes sir.

Q There, when he was at Zepf's saloon, after he had arrived there, and sometime after he got there he for the first time learned that the noise that he had heard was the explosion of the bomb.

A He said somebody told him it was a bomb, bursting of a bomb.

Q Somebody told him it was a bomb, and that he did not know who the man was that said it was a bomb?

A Yes sir.

Q Had you ever seen these two sticks of giant powder in the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A No sir.

Q Did you ask him anything about these particular two sticks of

giant powder, or did he tell you that he had had them there for a long time to show reporters?

A He said he had them there to show reporters, and anyone who came to ask about them, but he did not say whether he had had them there a long time.

Q Now, did he volunteer that information, or did you ask him about these two sticks of giant powder?

A My recollection is we asked him about his having dynamite and bombs in the office generally, and he said that he had those two.

Q These two what?

A Two giant powder cartridges and fuse.

Q Did you see them--have you ever seen them?

A No sir, I have never seen them.

MR. FOSTER--I presume Mr. Grinnell, that you do not claim that the sticks of giant powder that you introduced here that came from Mr. Spies' office is in the shape of a bomb?

MR. GRINNELL: I do. Not only that, but there is a place for a fuse and fulminating cap in them and it can be exploded as it stands.

MR. FOSTER--So you can explode anything that is explosive as it stands.

MR. GRINNELL: With a hole in the end of it for a fulminating cap.

MR. FOSTER: What is on the outside--anything but paper?

MR. GRINNELL--Paper, mostly. You can confine dynamite by paper alone.

MR. FOSTER-- We will have to ask the gentlemen to bring those sticks in. As they came here, as I saw them, they were in little packages, something like tallow candles.

Q Now, didn't he say in this conversation after speaking of these sticks of giant powder--he called them giant powder, didn't he?

A He called them giant powder cartridges. He did not use the word "sticks."

Q Just giant powder cartridges. Now, didn't he in that same connection speaking of the giant powder cartridges say that there was no bombs in the Arbeiter Zeitung office?

A He said there was no other dynamite, if I remember right in the office except those that he knew of.

Q Well, no, I did not ask you about the other dynamite. I asked you whether he said that there was no bombs in it.

A My recollection is that he did not.

Q That he did not; he called them two giant powder cartridges, you say.

A Yes sir.

Q And spoke about the fuse that he had also to show the reporters

A Yes sir.

Q But he did not tell you that there were no bombs in the Arbeiter Zeitung office that he knew of, or other dynamite?

A Well, he said there was no other dynamite there that he knew of; I do not recollect that he used the word bombs.

Q Well, I will have to refresh your memory a little.

A ---Though possibly he did.

Q (Showing witness same newspaper as before). Now, didn't he use this language: "There were no bombs or any other dynamite in the Arbeiter Zeitung office that he knew of?"

A Very likely he did if it is there.

Q Well, isn't it?

A Yes sir, it is there.

Q So then he referred to the giant powder cartridges and he then followed it right up by saying that there were no bombs in the Arbeiter Zeitung office?

A I remember he used the word dynamite. I did not recollect that he used the word bombs.

Q Well, now, after your memory is refreshed, do you remember now that he said that there was no bombs in the Arbeiter Zeitung office?

A I think probably he did use that word.

Q But do you now remember?

A I do not remember it.

Q You do not?

A No sir.

Q You only say that he said so because it is so written when it was fresh in your mind--all that he said?

A I think my other statement was that I did not recollect that he did say so.

Q Did you see that package of dynamite that was here the other day?

A No sir.

Q You represented to him that there was half a bushel of dynamite that had been carried away from the office?

A I merely put that q estion to him from the report that I had heard that a lot of it had been found there.

Q Well, that was your mesure? You measured it in a bushel or rather by the half bushel to him?

A I think I said something about half a bushel.

Q And he denied any knowledge of that character, of any dynamite about the Arbeiter Zeitung office, except as you have told?

A I don't think he denied it, after that. He said that his office was more war-like than some.

Q That it was more war-like than some?

MR. BLACK: And that he did not know all that was in it?

A Yes.

MR. FOSTER--Did Mr. Bonfield join in this conversation, or was it conducted entirely by you and the Times reporter?

A Most of it was conducted by Mr. Graham and myself. Most of the questioning. I think I recollect that Mr. Bonfield asked him about an express package of dynamite.

Q So then Mr. Bonfield did chime in occasionally during this?

A I don't remember that he asked any question but that.

Q Did he say anything in this conversation about who published the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A He said that the Arbeiter Zeitung was published by the Socialistic Publishing Company.

Q Which was chartered?

A Which was chartered. He said there were a large number of stock holders, I think seventy-five or a hundred or so.

Q About one hundred stock-holders?

A He said they met twice a month and instructed him how to run the paper.

Q And that he was employed on a salary?

A Yes sir%

Q Now, did you ask him who wrote--and just answer my question now-nothing more, if you please--did you ask him who wrote the revenge circular?

A I don't think I did ask him who wrote it.

Q You did not ask him who wrote the Revenge circular. All the question as to the Revenge circular was as to who printed it?

A I think so.

Q And he said that he did not know who printed it?

A Yes, or where it was printed. I think he said that.

Q Now, wait a minute.

A Well, perhaps I could make an explanation about it.

MR: GRINNELL-- Why shouldn't he make it now?

MR. FOSTER--Yes, if it relates to your answer.

A He told us that either that circular--he told us after we had questioned him some, that either that circular or the call, I don't remember which--he thought had been printed at some printing office at which the last name was Klein; I have forgotten the first name, but my recollection is---

Q That it was either one or the other?

A Yes sir.

Q The other that was printed there?

A Yes sir. But I think it was the dodger that he referred to but I am not certain.

Q You are not sure about that?

A No.

Q Now, did he say that he got it printed here, or that he had learned or heard that it was printed at Klein's, or somebody and

Klein?

A I think he said that he thought probably it was printed there, because they had done a good deal of printing for the Socialists; somsthing to that effect.

Q Where did you find Mr. Spies on that occasion, Mr. Knox?

A At the time of the interview?

Q Yes sir.

A He was in his cell in the Central station.

Q Whereabouts?

A Well, do you want the location of the cell?

Q Yes sir; as near as you can give it.

A I don't know as I could give you that because we went down into the cells and went around various passages and I could not tell whether it was on the north or south, east or west side. It was on a different side from the cells in which the other two that we interviewed were confined.

Q It was on a back part, rather a dark and dingy place there, don't you remember?

A Well, I don't know. It was white-washed; it wasn't very dark.

Q It was illuminated by white-wash, you say?

A Partly.

Q Any lights around there at that time?

A Yes.

Q What time in the day was it?

A It must have been along in the--very nearly 9 o'clock at night.

Q The lamps were in the cell where he was, were they or were they down the corridors?

A I think there was a lamplight in the corridor in front of the cell. I know that I took some notes there, and it was light enough for me to do that.

Q You did not visit that cell in the day-time that day?

A No sir.

Q Was that the last interview you had with Mr. Spies?

A I think it was.

Q And the only one?

A I think so

Q The only one you had ever had?

A The only one after the Haymarket affair.

Q Well, summing it all up then in a nutshell, he said that he was opposed to the meeting, he believed that it was not the proper thing to do, he did not want to make a speech, he made one which was quieting in its nature, and that he was surprised when this bomb was thrown--that is out the substance?

A Well, I don't know as I care to sum up the evidence. I have given it.

Q Well, that is my summing of it up. If there is any objection to that, we would like you to state what there is in it that is objectionable. But then I will ask you something that you can answer. Did Mr. Spies say that at his suggestion the clause of "Workingmen, Arm Yourselves and Appear in Full Force" was in fact stricken out and other handbills were printed and circulated?

A He said this man went away and got it taken out.

Q What did he say about the bills that were circulated on the street? Did he say that that clause was contained in the circulars

or did he say that it was not?

A I don't think that he said anything about that further than to say that someone brought him one with it and he insisted it should be taken out, and the man went away and took it out. And he said so far as his acquaintance with dynamite and the manufacture of bombs and so forth was concerned it was principally from what he had read?

A That is what he said.

Q Did you have him go into a dissertation upon the manufacture of bombs upon that occasion, or did you simply ask him, in a general way something about their manufacture.

A Well, he gave us a short dissertation on it---very brief.

Q That was the nature of it--that so far as his personal knowledge was concerned, it didn't amount to as much as what he had read--- theoretical rather than practical.

A Well, he did not put it in that way.

Q No but wasn't that practically what he said--that it was more from what he had read than anything else?

A He said that his knowledge came more from his reading than otherwise.

Q He did not say what he had read, I suppose?

A Nosir.

Q He also said in this connection, as I remember your testimony, that for some weeks he hadn't written editorials?

A Yes sir.

Q And when you interrogated Mr. Schwab, Mr. Schwab stated to you that he had been engaged principally in writing the principal

editorials of late?

A Yes sir; he said he wrote-

Q The principal portion of them?

A The "To Arms" editorial, as it was called.

Q Well, I didn't ask you particularly about that, but didn't he say in a general way that he wrote principally the editorials-had been of late writing the most of them?

A Yes sir.

Q Mr. Schwab was then I suppose in jail, also, in a cell?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you converse with him next after having the conversation with Mr. Spies?

A I think Mr. Fielden was the one we saw next after Mr. Spies.

Q Mr. Fielden was the next?

A Yes sir.

Q Well, you have spoken of Mr. Schwab next in your testimony and I will ask you in regard to Mr. Schwab in that connection. In asking him in regard to the editorials, did he say that he had or had not urged the laboringmen to use dynamite?

A He said if I remember right that he had advocated the use of arms, but not dynamite.

Q Well, don,t you see I didn't ask you about arms! I asked you whether he did or did not advise the use of dynamite. Now, just stack your arms for the present.

A Well, I answered the question by saying what he did say, and that is all he said about it.

Q Yes; but I didn't ask you all that he said.

MR. GRINNELL: That answers the question now, Mr. Foster.

MR. FOSTER-Don't you suppose I can understand English, Mr. Grinnell, plain, simple English?

A I will ask you the question and please answer it now Mr. Knox; in this conversatin, did he say whether he had advocated the use of dynamite or whether he had not advocated the use of dynamite?

A He said in relation to that simply what is implied in the answer that I gave you.

Q I do not ask you what is implied. Just answer that question

A Well, that is contained in the question.

THE COURT: That is a proper answer, Mr. Foster. When you ask a witness as to what another man has said, he should repeat what the other man has said, not his conclusion.

MR. FOSTER: Well, in the first instance, he has done that. Now, then, he on his direct examination stated that Mr. Schwab said that he had advised the arming of the workingmen. Now, I ask him in this conversation, in these editorials, did he say that he had advised the use of dynamite, or did he say that he had not advised the use of dynamite? Now, that is a fair question.

THE COURT: Well, the words, as the witness gives them, which he says the defendant used, if you exclude the context, don't make sense.

MR. FOSTER--Well, I will ask it in this way.

Q Did he say that he recommended the use of dynamite?

THE COURT: You can say yes or no, to that.

A No sir, he did not say that he did recommend it, no sir.

MR. FOSTER--Didn,t he say that he had not recommended it?

A Well, I will have to aswer that just as I did before.

Q You can answer it without making a suggestion more than that.

A Yes, I think I can. I think I did answer it.

Q I don't know whether you did answer it or not. He said in this conversation" I never urged the use of dynamite", didn't he?

A No sir.

Q Didn,t he say that?

A No sir.

Q Well now, let us see what you wrote upon that subject at the time.

A At least that is not my recollection.

Q I understood you in your direct examination to say that Schwab had advised workingmen to arm, but that he had not urged them to use dynamite. Is that correct?

A My recollection is that I testified that he had urged workingmen to arm themselves, to use arms but not dynamite. That is my recollection.

Q Now, that is what I have been for fifteen minutes trying to get you to say--that Schwab said that he recommended arms but not dynamite. That is all then, on that subject. You had a conversation with Mr. Fielden then, after that?

A Yes sir.

Q The same party I suppose, Mr. Graham of the Times, and you being present?

A Yes sir.

Q Who was the spokesman in these interviews, principally, you or Mr. Graham?

A Well, I think we asked about an equal number of questions.

Q Did you take a regular order in it, one examine awhile and the another?

A No sir.

Q Or did both fire at once a cross-fire?

A We both fired the questions just as they occurrred to us.

Q Without any particular system?

A Yes sir.

Q Or any regard, I suppose, to leading questions either?

A Well, we were not restrained in that particular.

Q Now, Mr. Fielden told you that he was a member of the American Group?

A Yes sir.

Q And didn,t he tell you in this conversation, Mr. Knox, that the first that he knew that there was going to be a meeting at the Haymarket Square, he went down to the Arbeiter Zeitung office, the place of the meeting of the American Group, for the purpose of attending the organization of cloak makers?

A To arrange for their organization.

Q To arrange for the organization of cloak makers?

A As I understood it, yes.

Q Not only that he went there to attend a meeting for the organization of cloak makers, but he told you the Arbeiter Zeitung office was the place of meeting--that is, the building of the Arbeiter Zeitung office, in the building, was the place of meeting of the American Section?

A Yes sir.

Q And that he went there for that purpose?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, didn't he in that connection say when he got there that evening that was the first that he knew there was to be a Haymarket meeting?

A That was the idea that I got; he said he learned there of the meeting.

Q Didn't he tell you on that occasion that he was at work all day?

A I don't remember that.

Q Don't you remember this--that Mr Fielden told you that he had been at work all day and was advertised to speak on 12th street at some place there, when he had seen this notice of a meeting of the American Group, and that he had gone directly to the meeting, and there first heard that there was a Haymarket meeting called?

A I don't remember him saying anything about work. He said he saw the notice of the meeting of the American Group and went down there and there learned of the Haymarket meeting.

Q Well, he did not say he had ever heard of it, before he went to the Arbeiter Zeitung office, the place of the meeting?

A No sir.

Q And he said that he was speaking at the time that the police made the attack upon the mob?

A He said the police got there just as he was finishing.

Q Or rather, upon the audience. The police got there--when the police came to disperse the audience?

A Just as he was finishing speaking, I think.

Q Didn't he tell you that Capt. Ward ordered them to quietly and peaceably disperse, to which he responded, "Captain, this is a peaceable meeting."

A I don't remember that he repeated anything as having come from Capt Ward.

Q Well, he said that he had?

A He may have done so.

Q He said that he had stated to the officers that this was a peaceable meeting?

A He said he used those words, yes sir, to Capt. Ward; he said he used those words to Capt. Ward.

Q To Captain Ward-that "This is a peaceable meeting." He said he was still on the wagon when he used those words, did he not?

A I don't remember that.

Q You don't remember where he said he was?

A No sir.

Q Now, what did he say he did after that? After he got off the wagon, what did he say he did?

A He said that he, as soon as the bomb exploded he got down behind some boxes or barrels, or something of that kind, and if I remember right he said there were a number of others there with him, and the bullets were flying around pretty thick, he said, and he got up and ran off.

Q Now, which direction did he say he went?

A Well, I could not tell you which direction he went immediately.

Q Did not he tell you whether he went through the alley or whether he went down on the sidewalk back of the police, or whether he

went in the street forward the police?

A I think he said he went around the corner, but I don't know whether into an alley or the street.

Q Didn't he say he went around the corner toward Randolph street, don't you remember that?

A I don't remember; very likely he did.

Q You don't remember that he said that he went around Randolph street.

A I don't remember that.

Q He might have said that however?

A Yes sir.

Q And did he say anything about whether he did any firing that night?

A He did not say that he did any shooting.

Q Did he say that he did not?

A No sir. I don't think he said anything about it.

Q Was anything asked on that subject?

A I don't remember that there was.

Q Did he say anything about whether he had a revolver in his pocket on that occasion?

A He didn't say anything about it.

Q Nothing was asked about it?

A I think not.

Q And this was the next day after, in the evening at 9 o'clock?

A Yes sir.

Q And you had talked with a number of officers in regard to it, I presume?

A I presume so.

Q Lieutenants and privates both, I suppose?

A Well, I hadn't talked with many because I had not been on that particular part of the work.

Q You talked with Mr. Bonfield, the detective, James Bonfield, - you talked with him, of course?

A I don't remember that I said anything to him about the case until I applied to go down to interview them.

Q Then you asked about it?

A We ll,--

Q How many policemen, do you know, of all ranks and grades, had you alked with and detectives in regard to the matter?

A Well, I could not name one. I don't know that I talked with any. Possibly I may have talked a few words on the subject.

Q Were you at the hospital?

A No sir.

Q You were not at the Coroner's inquest?

A No sir.

Q Had heard no testimony taken?

A No sir.

Q Well, I suppose that there is a fellow feeling among reporters-you tell each other what you hear or what you learn in regard to any matter of general notoriety, to some extent?

A We talk mostly about the matters after they get into the paper.

Q Or you go out in pairs, you hunt in pairs sometimes, don't you, as you and Graham were doing that night, after information, don't you?

A Once in a while.

Q Now, had you been detailed to investigate this particular matter and write an article for the next morning?

A I think I had been.

Q At what time had you been detailed, Mr. Knox?

A Well, I presume that I followed the usual custom. I was at the office at half past seven and was given something to do for the evening.

Q Now, you were detailed at half past 7?

A About that time.

Q Where were you during the day before, on the 5th?

A If I remember right, that was the day that I went out to--I was sent out to the corner of 18th and Center avenue---a little excitement out there.

Q Mr. Graham was on the same line. Where did you meet Mr. Graham?

A At the City Hall.

Q Was he there waiting for an interview at the time you went in?

A I could not tell you.

Q Well, he was there at any rate?

A He was there, he was there, yes.

Q He went in with you and you went away together?

A I don't remember that he did.

Q Now, it had not occurred to either you or Mr. Graham---or at least whether it had occurred or not, it was not asked Mr. Fielden anything with regard to firing any shots at the Haymarket meeting at that interview?

A I don't think anything was asked; I did not know anything of it at the time myself.

Q And it was after the Coroner's Inquest?

A It was; immediately after.

Q Immediately after, and you had been advised in regard to the action of the Coroner's inquest?

A Just gotten the result.

Q And you had not heard up to that time, that it was ever claimed by any officers that Mr. Fielden fired a shot?

A No sir.

Q Niether you nor Mr. Graham asked Mr. Fielden anything about whether he fired a shot?

A I don't think we did.

Q And you had not heard that any suggestion upon that subject had been made or had not been made at the Coroner's investigation?

A Had not, no sir.

Q Did Mr. Fielden ever say anything about who threw the bomb or as to whether he knew who threw the bomb?

A He said he didn't know. They all of them said that.

Q Mr. Fielden said that he didn't know anything about the bomb?

A I think so--that is, about who threw it. He knew of its explosion.

Q Was there any conversation with Spies in regard to who threw it?

A I think so.

Q He said substantially the same thing?

A Yes sir.

Q That he knew nothing about it?

A About who threw it?

Q Yes, as to who, threw it.

A Yes sir.

Q Now, did he say anything more about it than that?

A Well, what I have already testified to what he thought it was.

Q Yes. Is that all? Did you write there, all that he said, as you then remembered it?

A Well, I say that I think very likely what I wrote and my recollection is that such is the case--was cut down in some cases.

Q Probably cut down, but you don't remember anything else that Mr. Spies said about who threw the bomb, or what kind of man threw the bomb?

A I don't think he said.

Q Nor didn't say anything about the feelings of the man that had thrown the bomb?

A He may have said the man had peremptory feelings but I don't know.

Q I don't ask you what he may have said; but what do you remember he said?

A I don't remember that he said anything.

Q Then he did not say anything about that some hot-head had thrown the bomb on his own responsibility, did he?

A I don't remember that he did.

Q Well, your report don't contain anything of that kind, does it?

A No sir, I think not.

Q You have read it recently. Your recollection is that he never said that some hot-head had thrown that bomb on his own motion, on his own responsibility?

A I don't remember it.

Q Do you think you would have remembered it if he had made use of that?

A I think I would.

Q Now, I will ask you whether Mr. Bonfield, the detective, had any conversation with him, on that occasion that you did not hear?

THE COURT--How can he tell that?

MR. FOSTER- Why, he was there at this very interview.

THE COURT--Well, whether he had any which he did not hear while the witness was present?

MR. FOSTER- Certainly- I say that interview.

THE COURT- But "on that occasion", is ambiguous, and means more than that.

MR. FOSTER-Well, I want the witness to understand that I mean at the interview at which he and Mr. Graham was present.

Q At that interview, did Mr. Bonfield have any conversation that you did not hear?

A While I was within hearing, I think Mr. Bonfield did not say anything to Mr. Spies but what I heard.

Q You think you heard it all. -Now, Mr Spies did not say anything to Bonfield but what you heard?

A I think not.

Q As to one of Mr. Foster's questions. You say that Mr. Spies said when someone called out "Hang McCormick" -what was Mr. Spies's response to that?

Q When someone called out "Hang McCormick", what was Mr. Spies's response to that? What did he say he responded?

MR. SALOMON: I want to call the court's attention that Mr. Grinnell went into all that was said.

THE COURT-- Of course he asked for the whole interview. And he got what appears not, now, according to the letter of the cross-examination. There is one feature that either the witness did not remember or no question called it out, and so this one feature came out upon the cross-examination. Now, any new feature which is brought out on the cross-examination they have a re-direct upon.

MR. SALOMON--Well, ours was as to all that was said. They asked for part of what was said and we asked for all that was said.

THE COURT- -Upon that new feature, they have a right to a re-direct.

MR. SALOMON--We do not think it is a new matter.

MR. GRINNELL--If you remember, Mr. Knox, state it.

THE COURT--Answer the question--if he said what he said in reply to that?

A He said that the time--it was not time for that, if I remember right.

MR. GRINNELL--Anything else in that connection?

A Well, I think he said that the time might come when that would be the thing to do.

Q But it had not come yet?

A Yes.