Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified through an interpreter. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Attended a meeting at 54 W. Lake Street, Greif's Hall, on the evening of May 3, 1886. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.J 207), socialists and/or socialism (vol.J 213), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.J 216), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.J 203.5), meaning of "Y" (vol.J 203.5), Neff's (Thoeringer) Hall (vol.J 210), Greif's Hall (vol.J 203), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.J 219), Carpenters' Union (vol.J 214), Cigar-makers' Union (vol.J 209), Lingg, Louis (vol.J 205), Louis Lingg and bomb-making (vol.J 208), Lingg's distribution of bombs (vol.J 208), Engel, George (vol.J 216), Fischer, Adolph (vol.J 204).
Testimony of Gustav Lehman, 1886 July 23.
Volume J, 203-221, 19 p.
Lehman, Gustav.
Carpenter; German immigrant.
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GUSTAVE LEHMANN
a witness produced on behalf of the People, after having been duly sworn testified as follows through sworn interpreter:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Ingham.
Q What is your name?
A Gustave Lehmann.
Q What is your business?
A Carpenter.
Q Where did you live on the 4th of May?
A 41 Freeman Street.
Q How long did you live there
A Six months.
Q How long did you live in this city?
A Four years
Q How long did you live in this country?
A Four years.
Q Where did you live before coming to this country?
A In Germany -- in Prussia.
Q Were you born in Prussia?
Q Are you a married man?
A Yes.
Q Did you attend a meeting at 54 West Lake Street, Greifs Hall, on the evening of the third of May last?
A Yes.
Q What time did you get to that meeting?
A A quarter before nine.
Objected to; objection overruled; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
Q Who did you go there with?
A I was by myself.
Q Where were you before you went to that meeting?
A I was at home.
Q Were you at Zeph's Hall that night?
A No.
Q How did you come to go to that meeting?
A I was about to go to the Carpenter's Meeting at Zepf's Hall, and I met several persons who were goint to 54 West Lake Street.
Q Did you see the Arbeiter Zeituning of that day?
A Yes.
Q Look at the paper which I now show you? Did you ever see the sentence before to which I have called your attention "Y, Montag Abend"?
A The day before the meeting in the Arbeiter Zeitung.
(Exhibit marked People's No. 7 hereto attached in Vol. of Exhibits)
Q Read it?
A "Y -- Come Monday Evening".
Q What did that mean, if you know?
A That we should come to 54 Lake Street and should attend the meeting.
Q Who do you mean by "we"?
A The armed ones.
Q When you got to the meeting was the meeting in session?
A Yes.
Q Who was in the chair presiding?
A I did not know at the time, I learned afterwards. I thought it was one Hermann, but it was not him.
Q What did you do at the meeting?
A When I got there somebody made a motion to post somebody at the door and then I went out to the sidewalk by the door.
Q Was anything said as to why you should be posted at the door?
A That no one who was going to the water closet should remain there and listen.
Q Where were you stationed?
A On the sidewalk where the steps were leading down -- that no one should remain there.
Q How long did you stay there?
A It may have been a good half hour.
Q Were you in the meeting at any time during the evening?
A Yes.
Q How many times did you go into the meeting?
A Twice.
Q Was that meeting in the basement?
A Yes.
Q Where did you stand (showing witness diagram of 54 West Lake Street)?
A I was standing there (indicating).
Q When you went into the meeting during the night did you hear anybody say anything?
A I only heard that large man with the blonde moustache -- he was taking upon himself to distribute the handbills.
Q He took it upon himself to do what?
A He was going to have handbills printed, or print them himself, I don't know which.
Q Do you know who that man was?
A I was told afterwards that his name was Fischer.
On motion of defendants' counsel last answer ordered stricken out.
Q Who were present at that meeting whom you knew?
A There was Seliger and Thielen and myself and my brother and Fischer and Breitenfeld and Abraham Hermann and that is about all that I remember now.
Q Do you know Engel?
A I don't know him personally.
Q Do you know him by sight.
A I saw him once at Greif's Hall meeting, but I did not know him and I do not know his looks.
Q Would you know him by sight now?
A I don't know whether I would know him.
Q How long have you known Lingg?
A About six months.
Q Was Lingg at that meeting?
A I cannot say whether he was in the basement, but he went home with me.
Q Did you have a talk with him on your way home?
A We had a little quarrel.
Q Tell what was said.
Objected to on behalf of all the defendants excepting Lingg; objection overruled; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A Somebody came up to us from behind on the sidewalk and he said to us, "You are all oxen -- fools".
Q Who said that?
A Lingg.
Q What else did he say?
A Well, I asked what was going on, and he told me that if I wanted to know something that I should come to 58 Clybourne Avenue the next evening.
Q You asked him what was going on where?
A What had taken place at the meeting where we were just coming from
Q Were you and Lingg alone, or were others with you?
Q Seliger, my brother, Lingg, and there was one more that I cannot now recall his name.
Q Where did you go that night?
A I went home.
Q Where did you go the next day?
A I worked.
Q When did you quit work?
A Three o'clock.
Q Where did you work?
A On Sedgwick Street.
Q What kind of work?
A Carpenter work.
Q When you quit work where did you go?
A I wanted to go home, but I met a countryman of mine, and we went to Lingg's.
Q What was that countryman's name?
A. Schmideke.
Q What time did you get to Lingg's?
A About five o'clock.
Q Who did you see at Lingg's when you got there?
A Lingg and Seliger and one whose name I did not know. It is said that he is a blacksmith and a certain Huebner was there.
Q How long did you stay at Lingg's?
A Not long, perhaps ten minutes.
Q What were the people at Lingg's doing while you were there?
A They were busy in the bed room; they did some work, but I could not precisely see what they were doing I could not understand what they were doing.
Q Did you work at anything while you were there?
A No.
Q Did they have anything tied around their faces?
A Yes.
Q What?
A A cloth. Lingg and Huebner had none around.
Q What did you go there for?
A My countryman wanted to buy a revolver.
Q After you left there where did you go?
A I went home with my countryman.
Q Did you go back to Lingg's?
A Yes.
Q What time did you go back?
A O, perhaps seven o'clock.
Q How long did you stay there that time?
A Oh, perhaps ten minutes.
Q Did you work at anything while you were there?
A No.
Q What did you see there?
A It was the same thing as at my first visit -- they were busy in the bed room and Huebner was working at some strings, cutting it off into pieces.
Q What kind of string?
A A fuse.
Q Look at the package which I now show you (handing witness a coil of fuse)? Was it anything like this?
A No.
Q Look at that which I now show you (indicating).
A It was a white cord that they had.
Q Look at the coil of fuse again as I show it to you now (witness examines same).
A Yes, that is like cord.
Q Did you see anything like that fuse in caps which I now show you?
A Yes.
Q What else did you see? I did not get into the bed room, but these fuse and caps they were making outside in the front room.
Q Did Lingg give you anything that afternoon?
A Yes.
Q What did he give you?
A A small hand satchel with a box in it, and three bombs and two coils of fuse and some caps.
Q Look at the tin box which I now show you? Is that the can which he gave you?
A Yes.
Q What did he give you besides this box?
A Everything was contained in the satchel.
Q By satchel do you mean this tin box
A No, it is a hand trunk -- a small trunk carried in the hand, covered with leather.
Q Look at the box of caps which I now show you? Did he give you anything like that?
A I found that afterwards in the sachel.
Q Was there anything in the tin box?
A It was said that dynamite was in it
Q How much of the material -- whatever it was -- was there in the box?
A Well, the can was nearly full.
Q What kind of bombs did he give you?
A Three round bombs.
Q Did you have any kind except the round ones?
A No.
Q What did Lingg say to you when he gave you those things?
A He wanted me to keep them; he desired me to keep them in a manner that no one could find them.
Q What did you do with that?
A I took it home with me to the wood shed.
Q What did you do with that then?
A I got up at three o'clock that night and carried them away to the prairie.
Q Did you eat your supper at home that night?
A Yes.
Q After supper where did you go?
A I started to the meeting on Lake Street.
Q What meeting?
A The Carpenter's meeting.
Q How long did you stay at that meeting?
A I was not there at all. I was not at the meeting at all.
Q Why didn't you go to the Carpenter's meeting.
A I got there late and several came around and wanted us to go around to 54 Lake Street, to the meeting.
Q We are talking now about Tuesday night and not Monday night. After you eat your supper on Tuesday night where did you go?
A I was about to go to Ulrich's Hall.
Q Did you go to Ulrich's Hall?
A Yes, but no Carpenters' meeting was taking place.
Q Then where did you go?
A Then I was about to go home, but we went to the Thoeringer Hall and took some beer -- 58 Clybourne Avenue.
Q Is that Neff's Hall?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any talk with Lingg about going there, and if so, what?
A The evening before as we going home from the meeting on the West Side, at 54 West Lake Street, he told us that if we wanted to know something that we should come to the hall at 58 Clybourne Avenue.
Q Is that the reason why you went to Neff's Hall?
A Yes.
Q Who went with you to Neff's Hall?
A My countryman was with me.
Q What is his name?
A Schmideke.
Q How long did you stay at Neff's Hall?
A Not very long -- perhaps ten minutes.
Q About what time did you get there?
A About half past nine.
Q Did you see anybody there that you knew?
A Nobody but the barkeeper.
Q Where did you go after leaving Neff's Hall?
A We were going to go home, and we went up Clybourn Avenue to Larrabee Street.
Q Whose place?
A We simply went along the street. We had no special place in view.
Q What time did you get home that night?
A About eleven o'clock.
Q Did you meet Seliger or Lingg that night?
A They were standing on the sidewalk on Larrabee Street near Clybourn Avenue -- Seliger and Lingg together.
Q Did you have any talk with them?
A No.
Q Did you say anything to them, or they say anything to you?
A We also stood still there with them, but one remarked that we should not keep together -- we four -- and then we went apart. I do not know whether it was Seliger or Lingg who said that.
Q Then where did you go? We went towards North Avenue, along Larrabee Street.
Q Did you see Thielen that night?
A Yes, near North Avenue we met Thielen.
Q What was he doing?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q What time did you get home that night?
A About eleven o'clock.
Q Did you go to bed?
A Yes.
Q At what time?
A Immediately after I got home.
Q When was it you took the dynamite out on the prairie?
A The same night I got it from him.
Q What time in the night?
A Half past two or three o'clock.
Q Did you get up out of bed to go and take it away?
A Yes.
Q Where did you take it?
A Behind Ogden's Grove about Clybourn Avenue there, on the prairie.
Q Did you ever go there afterwards to get it with anybody?
Objected to.
THE COURT: If they want to identify it I will allow it. To which ruling of the Court the defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A I went there with a detective.
Q With this gentleman (pointing to officer Hoffman)?
A Yes.
Q When did you go with him?
A I cannot state the date exactly; it was the 19th or 20th of May; something like that.
Q Did you find the things there?
A Yes.
Q Were the bombs there as well as the dynamite?
A Yes.
Q And the fuse and caps?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever been a member of any socialistic organization?
Objected to as immaterial and irrelevant; objection overruled; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A I have been a member of the North Side Group.
Q The North Side Group of what?
A Of the Socialistic Workingmen's Association.
Q How long did you belong to the North Side Group?
A About three months.
Q When did you leave the Group?
A I did not go there to attend after the 4th of May.
Q Where did the North Side Group meet?
A At 58 Clybourn Avenue.
Q Was it at Neff's Hall?
A Yes.
Q How often did you meet there with the Group.
A There was a meeting regularly every week
Q What day of the week?
A I think they were Mondays.
Q In the day time or night time?
A In the evening.
Q What did you do there when you met with the Group--- what did the Group do?
A Several things were done; we talked together and advised together and reviewed what had happened.
Q What else?
A Review what took place, what had happened among the workingmen and so forth during the week; several things took place; I cannot just tell everything.
Q Did you ever drill?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any arms?
A Yes.
Q What?
A Hunting guns and shot guns.
Q Where did you keep your gun?
A At my house.
Q Did you ever attend a dance at Florus Hall on Lake Street?
Objected to as immaterial; objection overruled to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A Yes.
Q When?
A I believe it was in the month of March but I do not know the date.
Q March of this year?
A Yes.
Q By whom was that ball gotten up?
A The Carpenter's Union.
Q Was Lingg present?
A Yes.
Q Was any money raised at that dance?
Objected to as leading; objection overruled; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A There was no money collected.
Q Was there any money raised in any way, or made in any way, by selling beer or cigars, or anything else? Was there any profit on the dance?
A Beer was drunk there and there was a profit on the beer.
Q About how much was that?
A $10.00 or $10.50, I don't know exactly.
Q Did you see anything done with the money?
A It was turned over to the Armed Section of the Carpenters' Union.
Q Was anything said about what it was to be used for?
A There were to be some shooting practices, and the targets and lead and so forth were to be bought for it.
Q What else, if anything?
A At the next meeting several came together and it was resolved that dynamite should be bought for it and we should practice with that once
Q Where was the meeting held at which that resolution was passed?
A 71 West Lake Street.
Q At whose place?
A At Florus Hall.
Q Is that a beer saloon?
A Yes.
Q Is there a hall overhead?
A Yes.
Q Was Lingg present at that meeting?
A Yes.
Q What was done with the money?
A It was unanimously resolved that we were to buy dynamite with it and experiemnt with it to find out how it
was used -- how it was handled.
Q What became of the money?
A We were unanimous that some one should take the thing in hand and Lingg was entrusted with it, and he took the money and bought dynamite with it.
Q When was that, as nearly as you can place it?
A About two weeks after the dance where the money was raised.
Q Did you ever hear Engel make a speech?
A Yes.
Q Where?
A At 58 Clybourn Avenue.
Q Is that at Neff's Hall?
A Yes.
Q When was it?
A I cannot say precisely, it was a long time ago -- January or February
Q Of what year?
A Of this year.
Q To whom did he make a speech -- what kind of a meeting was it?
A Before the assembled workingmen that were there of the North Side Group.
Q what did he say.
Objected to as too remote, and particularly being objected to on behalf of the other defendants than Mr. Engel; objection overruled; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A Those that could not arm themselves, that could not buy revolvers, should buy dynamite.
Q What else did he say?
A He said it was very cheap and was easily handled.
Q What else did he say?
A He gave a general description of how bombs could be made -- how gas pipes could be filled and so forth.
Q How did he say they could be made and filled?
A A gas pipe was to be taken and a wooden block put into the ends and it was to be filled with dynamite; then the other end is also closed up with a wooden block and old nails are tied around the pipe by means of wire; then a hole is bored into one end of it, and a fuse with the cap is put into that hole.
Q Was anything more said about the nails that were to be tied around with the wire?
A Well, that was tightened to the pipe and when it explodes and there were many pieces flying about.
Q Who was the chairman of that meeting at which Engel spoke?
A I was in the chair.
Q Did Lingg give you those bombs and dynamite on Monday night or Tuesday night?
A It was on Tuesday the 4th of May Lingg gave me those.
Q In the speech which you heard Engel make did he say anything as to where gas pipe could be procured?
A He said there was some on the West Side not far from the river -- near the bridge.
CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. Foster.
Q How long have you lived in this country?
A Four years.
Q How long have you belonged to the Carpenter's Union?
A Three years.
Q Do you still belong to it?
A Yes.
Q That was an organization of workingmen who followed the business of carpentering for a business?
A Yes.
Q Was it a secret society, or were the meetings open so that any one could come in?
A All of the meetings were public.
Q Then the meeting that Engel spoke at, at 58 Clybourn Avenue, was a public open-door meeting, was it?
A Yes.
Q You went to 54 Lake Street because you saw "Y --Come Monday Night", did you?
A Yes.
Q Was that the understanding before of the manner in which meetings were called?
A Yes.
Q How many times before have you seen that notice before in the Letter Box of the Arbeiter Zeitung?
A Only once before that time.
Q You understood that whenever a meeting was to be called of the Armed Section at 54 West Lake Street it would appear in the "Letter Box" in the Arbeiter Zeitung, did you, in this form?
A Yes.
Q How long had you understood this?
A I do not know how long before that; some one came to the Carpenters' Meeting and announced that fact to us.
Q When?
A At the time of the meeting.
Q How long did you belong to this Armed Section?
A I think three or four months, something like that.
Q Was it soon after you joined that you received notice of the manner of the calling of the meetings of the Armed Section?
A It was some time after; two months might have passed before it was announced.
Q How often did the armed Section meet at 54 West Lake Street?
A That was irregular.
Q Your meetings of the armed sections were governed by this notice in the Arbeiter Zeitung were they not?
A Yes.
Q Now, you were on your road home from that when you first saw Lingg on that night, were you?
A Yes.
Q You did not see him at 54 Lake Street that night?
A No.
Q You do not know that he was there?
A No.
Q You say that you had a talk together on the road home -- a little talk?
A As we went home he came up to us from behind on the sidewalk; whether he was there or not I cannot say.
Q You had a talk with him there?
A Yes, when we went home.
Q And he said if you wanted to know something come to Clybourn Avenue the next night?
A Yes.
Q That was all he said?
A Yes.
Q The next night you went to Clybourn, did you?
A Yes.
Q But Lingg was not there?
A No.
Q The only man that you say that you knew was the bartender?
A Yes.
Q And then you went home?
A No, I did not go home.
Q Where did you go?
A To Larrabee Street; and on Larrabee Street to North Avenue.
Q And drank a couple of glasses of beer?
A Not very many.
Q You drank some beer and then afterwards went home and got home at eleven o'clock?
A Yes.
Q And on the road when you were travelling you met Lingg and Seliger, I believe?
A Yes.
Q You were not at the Haymarket that night?
A No.
Q You saw Seliger at 54 Lake Street Monday Night, didn't you?
A Yes, he went home with me.
Q Was he at the meeting? Did he attend the meeting
at 54 Lake Street Monday night?
A That is just what I cannot say; he was there some time, but I cannot tell how long.
Q Do you mean to say that he was inside in the basement in the meeting?
A Yes, he was down in the basement.
Q You are sure about that?
A Yes.
Q He was there when you went there?
A We went there together; when we came from the place where the Carpenters' meeting was to have taken place, and I and my brother and he and several others went down together.
Q That was Zep's Hall that you came from?
A Yes, but I was not up at Zepf's Hall.
Q Now then you left Seliger down in the basement at this meeting when you went out on the sidewalk, did you?
A Yes.
Q So then you do know that he was in the basement and attended that meeting that night?
A Yes, but I don't know how long.
Q You are as sure of this as any fact that you have testified to?
A Yes.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Grinnell.
Q How far were you from 54 West Lake Street when you first saw Lingg that night?
Objected to; objection sustained.