Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Salomon. Cross and re-Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Was given an "Attention Workingmen" flier that did not contain the line to come armed, attended the Haymarket meeting, saw Parsons at Zepf's Hall and saw Spies being helped off of the wagon when the police arrived. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.M 448), Zepf's Hall (vol.M 453), received the "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.M 448), position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.M 450), street lights and/or lights on the wagon (vol.M 484), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.M 456), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.M 456), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.M 458), weapons in the crowd (vol.M 457), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.M 457), Spies, August (vol.M 451), Parsons, Albert (vol.M 454), Parsons, Lucy (vol.M 454), Schwab, Michael (vol.M 451), Fielden, Samuel (vol.M 450), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.M 480).
Testimony of Sleeper T. Ingram, 1886 Aug. 7.
Volume M, 447-487, 41 p.
Ingram, Sleeper T.
Employee, Crane Brothers Manufacturing.
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SLEEPER T. INGRAM,
a witness called on behalf of the defendants, was duly sworn and testified as follows:-
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SOLOMON.
Q- What is your name?
A- Sleeper T. INgram.
Q- Where do you, live, Mr. Ingram?
A- I live at 108 Hoyne Avenue.
Q- How long have you lived there?
A- I have lived there since the 5th. of January-- 2nd. of January.
Q- How old are you?
A- 19 years old the 15th. day of this month.
Q- Where were you born?
A- I was born in South St. Loius.
Q- How long did you stay in St. Louis?
A- Well, I couldN't tell you that, it is so long ago.
Q- In what year did you come to Chicago?
A- I came to Chicago in 1886.
Q- For whom have you worked since you have been here?
A- I worked for the Union Brass Manufacturing Company, and at present Crane Brothers.
Q- Are you a Socialist?
A- I am not.
Q- Or an anarchist?
A- No sir.
Q- Where were you standing on Tuesday the 4th. of May?
A- On Tuesday the 4th. of May I started in the morning to a meeting of the Union Brass Manufacturing Company's and there was not
any meeting and I went home about 4 o'clock.
Q- Did you meet anybody who gave you a paper during the day?
A- I did. As I came along the corner of Canal and Madison street about 10 feet of the viaduct, there was a man standing there and he gave me a circular.
Q- Have you got that circular yet?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Look at the paper now shown you and see if that is the same circular that you received on that day? (Handing witness paper)
A- Yes sir, that is it.
Q- Where was it you received that?
A- At the corner of Canal street and Madison street and the viaduct, about 10 feet off of the corner.
Q- Where have you had it since then?
A- I have had it at home in some of my pockets.
Q- When did you last find it again?
A- Day before yesterday I thought about it and went to look for it and got it out.
MR. SOLOMON: I want to offer this in evidence.
THE COURT: It is one of the circulars without the armed line?
MR. BLACK: Yes sir.
(Paper marked exhibit AA--- A.D.W)
MR. SOLOMON: Q- Did the person who gave you this have any more?
A- He had a handful, and was distributing them.
Q- Did you look at any others besides this one?
A- I did not, I saw he had a handful and took one out of them.
Q- And this is the one your received?
A- That is the one I received.
Q- What has become of the other portion of it?
A- I can't tell what became of it, I got it out of my clothes and I tried to straighten it out, and that is all there is of it.
Q- Where did you go after you received this circular?
A- I went home to supper.
Q- What did you do then?
A- I came down town on the street car to Desplaines street and went over to the Hay market.
Q- What time was it when you arrived at the Hay market?
A- It was close to 7 o'clock.
Q- Was there any people assembled there at that time?
A- There was not at that time, there was one or two standing on the corner, but there was no assembly.
Q- What did you do, after 7 o'clock?
A- I sat down on the peanut stand on the southeast corner of Randolph and Desplaines for three quarters of an hour, or so, and the crowd began to assemble on Desplaines street and I went over to it.
Q- What did you then do after seeing that crowd, or what occurred, if anything?
A- I went over to the steps of Crane Brothers and stood up, on the next to the top step and heard several of the speakers.
Q- Where are these steps of Crane Brothers, which you referred to just now?
A- They are about, I suppose, 15 feet from
the corner of the alley, may be a little more.
Q- That is on the east side of Desplaines street?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- And north of the alley these steps are?
A- Yes sir.
Q- About 15 feet?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Now, with reference to those steps where did the wagon stand?
A- Well, the wagon stood almost opposite, not quite, a little on the south.
Q- Did you see anybody get up on that wagon?
A- I saw several men get on that wagon.
Q- Do you recognize any of these defendants as getting on the wagon?
A- There is only one man that I can place and that is Mr. Fielden.
Q- Do you recognize this first man? (INdicating Mr Spies)
A- No sir, I do not.
(AT request of Counsel Mr. SPies stood up).
The witness; I can't say that I recognize that man. I know Spies was a, man that looked something like that, but I could not state positively that that was the man.
Q- How did you know the man was Spies?
A- I heard some one call him Spies and I paid cose attention to it, I had heard his name before.
Q- You had heard his name before and paid close attention to it?
A- I had heard his name his name before and I paid close attention to him to hear what he had to say.
Q- Did you see Spies when he first got on the wagon?
A- I did.
Q- What did he do?
A- I think he started off to talking about what the meeting was brought thtere for.
Q- Did he get off of the wagon after you first saw him get on the wagon?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Where did he go when he got off?
A- He got off the wagon and started south and I did'nt pay any attention to him after he got off the wagon and started off.
Q- He started off in what direction, you say?
A- South.
Q- How far had he gone south when you lost sight of him?
A- He just got about to the alley, I thought I noticed him cross the alley, but I could not say that I did. I noticed him going towards the alley and I thought I noticed him pass the alley, but I could not say for sure that I did.
Q- Did you see this man there that night? (indicating Schwab)
A- No sir, I could not say that I did.
Q- Can you say whether or not this man was with Mr. SPies?
A- No sir, he was not at that time.
Q- You are sure about that are you?
A- I am sure he was not at that time.
Q- You say the last you saw of Spies was when he went south past the alley, when did your next see him?
A- The next I saw him he was on the wagon again.
Q- What did he do?
A- Well, I don't know as he did anything, I noticed him on the wagon.
Q- Did he make a speech or address to the people assembled there?
A- Well, I think he made some few remarks, but did not but very few.
Q- Did you stay there until he concluded?
A- yes sir.
Q- Where were you standing while he was making his remarks to the audience?
A- While he was making his remarks I was still on the steps.
Q- On the steps that you have just mentioned, right across from the wagon, close to the wagon?
A- Yes sir.
Q- How far from the wagon were those steps?
A- I should judge about 15 feet may be not that far.
Q- The width of the sidewalk?
- Yes sir.
Q- I will ask you did any one else make a speech or address after Mr. SPies concluded?
A- Some one made a speech and I heard some one say it was Parsons.
Q- Did you hear Parsons address?
A- I did.
Q- All of it?
A- I heard it all.
Q- Where were you standing during Mr. Parsons address?
A- I was standing at the same place.
Q- After Mr. Parsons concluded did any one else speak?
A- I think Mr. Parsons-- when he concluded I got off of the steps and went off.
Q- Which directioj?
A- I went west--- north, north on
Desplaines street.
Q- At the time that you got, off of the steps and went north did you observe whether or not Mr. SPies and Mr. Parsons were still on the wagon
A- Mr. Parsons was on the wagon I could not say that there was any one else-- any of the other folks there, I did not notice.
Q- Could you say whether or not Mr. Spies was there?
A- I think he was.
Q- After leaving the wagon in which direction did you go?
A- I went towards Randolph Street where they said they were to adjourn the meeting to there.
Q- Randolph or Lake?
A- Zeph's Hall whereever it is.
Q- That is on Lake Street is'nt it?
A- It is on the corner of Lake and Desplaines.
Q- How did you come to go to Zeph's Hall was there anything said which induced you to go there?
A- Mr. Parsons spoke of adjourning the meeting to Zeph's Hall, as it looked like rain, and I went over there.
Q- How long did you remain in Zeph's Hall?
A- I went over to Zeph's Hall and found a big crowd there, and tried to find out where the meeting was to be held, and I heard that the carpenters were holding the hall and I went half way up stairs and come back again and stood around the door a few minutes and went out again.
Q- While standing around there at the door did you see any one
there that you had seen before that evening?
A- I didn't excepting I seen someone that I hadn't seen before, but I did'nt know for sure at that time.
Q- Who was that gentleman?
A- Mr. Parsons.
Q- Where did Parsons go what direction?
A- Mr. Parsons came into the saloon.
Q- Where did he go as he came into the saloon?
A- He walked up with a couple of ladies and I think he introduced some man to Mrs. Parsons.
Q- Who were those ladies, do you know?
A- One of those was Mrs. Parsons, as she was introduced, and I heard later that the other was Mrs. Holmes.
Q- What was the name of the man that was with Parsons?
A- I dont know.
Q- Do you know what kind of a looking man he is, will you describe him?
A- I could not, I don't know what kind of a looking man he was.
Q- Did you notice Parsons movements after he came into the saloon whether he sat down?
A- He did'nt sit down, I did'nt stay there any longer, I notice he did'nt sit down right away though.
Q- Was Parsons in the saloon when you went out?
A- I left him in the saloon.
Q- Where did you go after leaving the saloon?
A- I went back to the meeting.
Q- What position did you occupy there what place did you stand at?
A- I stopped just before I got to the steps, about the middle of the sidewalk, about t 3 feet before I got to the steps.
Q- Are these the same steps you stood at before?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- On which side of the steps did you stand?
A- On the North side
Q- How long did you remain standing there at those steps?
A- I remained there about 5 or 6 minutes, until the bomb exploded, and I stepped back against the wall.
Q- Just before the bomb exploded where were you standing?
A- The same place, about the center of the sidewalk.
Q- About the center of the sidewalk and North and East of the wagon?
A- Yes sir, about the center of the sidewalk northeast of the wagon.
Q- Did you see who was on the wagon at that time?
A- Mr. Fielden and Spies were on the wagon at that time.
Q- Now, just before the bomb exploded was there anything said by anybody?
A- There was some young fellow up on them steps said "Here come a gang of police", and I looked up, to see.
Q- Whom did he say that to, to you?
A- No sir, he did'nt say it to me at all.
Q-, How was that said in a loud or quiet tone?
A- not very
loud, I suppose he was telling some folks at the side of him.
Q- In a communicative voice just as if he was talking to somebody next to him?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Was Spies then on the wagon?
A- Spies and Fielden were both on the wagon.
Q- Did you notice the police come up and halt?
A- I did'nt see them halt, I heard them make the command.
Q- Who made the command and what was said?
A- Some officer in the lead.
Q- What did he say as you now recollect?
A- I tried to catchh his words, but I heard him say "I command this meeting to disperse in the name of the people of the state of Illinois".
Q- Was there any reply made by the speaker?
A- Mr. Fielden made the reply that they were peaceable.
Q- Was there anything further said by Fielden to the man who addressed him go to Fielden by the man who addressed him?
A- I heard nothing more.
Q- At the time that this conversation was going on between Fielden and the man who addressed him, with reference to the dispersing of the meeting, was Spies still on the wagon?
A- He was.
Q- What did he do, if anything, after that conversation?
A- Spies just turned around and started to go off of
the wagon as Fielden made the remarks.
Q- Did anybody assist him to get off?
A- He reached his hand down to be assisted, I did'nt see how he was assisted.
Q- Did you see anyone reach his hand to him?
A- No sir, I did not I saw him reach his left hand down to get down.
Q- Just indicate.
A- He reached out his hand just about as he jumped down, he stooped down.
Q- Did you see him get down?
A- I saw him stoop and jump.
Q- You saw him when he jumped?
A- Yes sir.
Q- How long after he jumped was it before the bomb exploded?
A- He had no more than got to the sidewalk I should think.
Q- After the explosion of the bomb where did you go to?
A- I stopped back against the wall to keep from getting killed.
Q- Was there any shooting going on then?
A- Yes sir, there was a great deal of shooting going on then.
Q- Who was it that was doing the shooting?
A- Well, most of the shooting that I could hear it seemed like the policemen were shooting.
Q- Did it come from the center of the street?
A- It came from the center of the street, yes, sir.
Q- Did you see anybody around about where you stood have a revolver?
A- No sir, I did not.
Q- Did you hear anybody speak of using a revolver.
A- No sir.
Q- I will ask you how is your hearing, is it good?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- And was good on that night?
A-,Yes sir.
Q- Did you hear most everything that was said by the speakers?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Plainly and distinctly?
A- Yes sir, I heard it all, but I cant remember it all.
Q- How was your eyesight on that night?
A- It was good.
Q- Now, you say you saw no one have a revolver and you heard no one speak of any arms?
A- I did not.
Q- Did you see any citizen or any person dressed in citizen's clothes use a revolver or show one?
A- I did not.
Q- How were the crowd around the wagon there with reference to being peaceable and quiet or otherwise?
A- It was a very peaceable meeting.
Q- Now, did you hear anybody say that night at any time "Here come the bloodhounds"?
A- No sir.
Q- "Do your duty and I will do mine"?
A- No sir.
Q- If Mr. Fielden had said those words or uttered those words would you have heard them?
A- I would.
Q- You stood near enough to,hear him did you?
A- Yes sir, I could hear him plain.
Q- You are sure he did not utter those words'
A- I am.
Q- Was there any shot fired from the wagon before you heard the explosion of the bomb?
A- No sir, there was not.
Q- Was there afterwards?
A- There was not that I could tell. The police were not very far from the wagon and there was a great deal of shooting where they were, I could not tell positively the crowd began to rush so.
Q- Did you keep you eye upon Fielden until he got off of the wagon?
A- I did not, I noticed him stoop down and reach his hand out and I was looking the other way then, in front.
Q- He jumped down?
A- He jumped down, yes, sir.
Q- MR. Spies you mean?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you notice Fielden getting down?
A- I noticed Fielden following.
Q- In which direction did Fielden get off of the wagon?
A- He got off on the same side.
Q- Did Fielden have a revolver in his hand?
A- No.
Q- If he did could you have seen it?
A- I think I should.
Q- How close, about, were the police, when you first saw them?
A- When I first saw them they were just passing the corner.
Q- About how many feet from the wagon?
A- I could not state positively, may be 30 or 40.
Q- Were they walking rapidly or slowly?
A- They were walking guite fast.
Q- About how many minutes or seconds do you think it was from the time you saw them until they were quite at the wagon.
A- It was not very long I could not say.
Q- Two or three seconds or, more?
A- I suppose not very
long.
Q- Do you know how many people there were on the wagon at the time that the police came up to the wagon?
A-, There was two standing in front, Spies and Fielden, and I think there was one or two, either sitting on the back end or standing, I don't remember exactly whether they were or not, I noticed there was some one there.
Q- Now, after the bomb went off and the shooting by the police where did you go, let me understand you?
A- I stepped back against the wall right next to the step.
Q- Upright or did you lie down?
A- I don't know as I laid down, I might have held my head down a little bit, I did'nt lay down, I know, I stood up against the wall, I know.
Q- How long did you remain there?
A- I remained there until every body got away.
Q- What did you do, then?
A- I walked up to the corner and there was nobody around the wagon, every body was up at the northwest corner of the street or middle of the street.
Q- What do you mean by everybody,
A- There was nobody where I was.
Q- Where did you go then?
A- I went through the alley and up Randolph Street.
Q- You mean the alley right next to Crane Bros?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Through the alley right on to Randolph street?
A- Yes,
sir.
Q- Back Randolph to Desplaines?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And then where did you go?
A- I went up Desplaines to the Lyceum Theater, I did not go in it, I went to it.
Q- From thence where did you go?
A- I stood there quite a while and then went up to Madison street and stood on Madison street for quite a while.
Q- And then where?
A- I believe I walked pretty near to the police station and back again.
Q- And then go home?
A- No, I staid there until pretty near two o'clock around them corners there.
Q- You are now working for Crane Bros. are you?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- How long have you been working for them?
A- I have been working for them since about-- oh, about the 10th. of May, I think.
Q- In what department are you at work?
A- I work in the machine department.
Q- Did you hear All of Mr. parsons speech?
A- yes sir-- not quite all of it, I heard it all until he said adjourn to the hall, and I went off, I don't know whether he finished at that point or not.
Q- Now will you please tell the jury, if you can remember, what Parsons said.
A- No sir, I could not tell it. If some of the words were called to my memory I may.
Q- You don't remember the speeches made of any of the gentlemen who spoke there, do you?
A- Mr. Parsons was speaking about the difference between the capital and the labor, how much we each got, one got 15 cents out of the dollar and the other 85, that is all I noticed about it.
Q- Pursuing that line of inquiry do you remember anything else that was said by Parsons?
A- I can't remember that I do, only when he got through and I went away.
Q- Do you remember anything of Mr. Spies speech?
A- I remember that he was speaking about the meeting, what it was brought there for; he said it was not brought there for the purpose of making riot, that is all that I can recollect now.
Q- You can't recall the substance or state what the speaker said at this time?
A- No sir.
Q- I will ask you how you came to be a witness in this case?
A- I came down here of my own accord.
Q- Have you been reading the papers, what has been stated on this trial?
A- Yes sir, I have been reading the papers.
Q- And that is the reason you came here?
A- Yes sir.
Q- To state what you blieved to be true?
A- Yes sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. INGHAM.
Q- How long have you lived in the city?
A- Lived here since the 2nd. day of January, seven months.
Q- Where did you live after you first came here?
A- 108 South Hoyne Avenue.
Q- Are you living there now?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Whom are you living with?
A- My parents.
Q- Did they move to the city then?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Before that you had lived where?
A- Detroit, Michigan.
Q-, How long had you lived in Detroit?
A- I lived there two years nearly three.
Q- Where did you live before that?
A- I lived before that at Sedalia, Missouri.
Q- Were you engaged in any business in Detroit?
A- I worked for the Smith & Owen Heating Company at Detroit.
Q- At what business?
A- Steam fitting.
Q- Was that your trade?
A- No sir.
Q- What is your trade?
A- My trade is machinist most of the time, I have'nt finished it yet.
Q- You are employed at that how?
A- Yes sir.
Q- At Crane Bros?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Were you sworn when you first came in?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you object to being sworn first?
A- Well, I thought I could tell the truth without being sworn.
Q- Did'nt care to be sworn first?
A- Did'nt care to be.
Q- When were you in South St. Louis?
A- I have'nt been in South St. Louis since I was a year old.
Q- From there you went to Seddaia?
A- No sir from there
to Lexington.
Q- How old were you when you went to Sedalia?
A- About 12 years old--- I was older than 12 years old.
Q- How old were you?
A- I lived in Sedalia--- I first went to Detroit and lived in Detroit from July to September and then I went back down here in Illinois and then I went to Sedalia.
Q- Where did you go in Illinois?
A- To a little town by the name of Nameoki.
Q- Where have you worked here in the city besides Crane's?
A- Union Braass Manufacturing Company.
Q- Were you working there at the time of the riot?
A- No sir, I was not.
Q- Where were you working at that time?
A- I was'nt working - I quit a few days before the 1st. of May.
Q- Out on a strike?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You were interested in the strike?
A No sir.
Q- You were one of the strikers?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You were not interested in the strike?
A- I was not interested in it.
Q- You simply struck because the others did?
A- The rest of them struck--- because I did'nt like to make any objection.
Q- What time did you go to this meeting?
A- About 7 O'Clock or little before.
Q- Where was it you got the circular?
A- Corner of Madison and Canal.
Q- You put the circular in your pocket to save it?
A- I put it in my pocket and did'nt pay any attention to it.
Q- When did you see it next?
A- I went to look for it two or three days ago, took it out of my pocket.
Q- That is the first time that you paid any attention to it?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did anybody ask you to look for it then?
A- They did not.
Q- You thought you would look for it yourself?
A- I just thought I would see about it. When I saw the papers talking about different kinds of circulars I just wanted to see what kind of circular that was.
Mr. Black Q- You wanted to see what kind of a circular yours was?
A- Yes sir.
Mr. Ingham.- Q- When did you first read in the papers anything about the circulars being in evidence?
A- Right after the trouble.
Q- That was the first time you read about the circulars being in evidence?
A- Yes sir, that is the first time I read anything about the circulars.
Q- How long after the trouble?
A- The first papers that came out spoke about the circulars being distributed on the streets.
Q- Did you go to look up your circular then?
A- I did'nt, the papers did'nt speak of two or three kinds of circulars.
Q- When was it you noticed the different kinds?
A- Two or three days ago I went and got mine and noticed it.
Q- You went and got yours, did you notice from the papers that it was different from yours?
A-- I noticed from the copy that mine was different.
Q- When did you first notice from the news papers that there was different kinds of circulars introduced in evidence?
A- I have noticed it all the time since this trial has been going on.
Q- Then you have been reading the papers ever since this trial began?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You noticed from the time this trial commenced that there was different kinds of circulars introduced in evidence?
A- Yes sir.
Q- When did you first think to go and look at your circular?
A- I happened to, I did'nt think anything about it until a few days ago.
Q- How many days?
A- I think it must have been Wednesday.
Q- When did you first see any of the counsel for the defense in this case?
A- A half an hour ago.
Q- Never saw them until half an hour ago?
A- No sir.
Q- Whom did you see then?
A- Mr. Solomon (Indicating)
Q- Where did you see Mr. Solomon?
A- Out here in this office
Q- That is the first you ever saw of him?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you know you were to be called as a witness before that?
A- I did not.
Q- You came here of your own volition?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And called Solomon out, did you?
A- No sir, I did'nt, I went to his office.
Q- When did you go to his office?
A- A little while before I came here, and a young gentleman came here with me.
Q- And then came from his office here?
A- Yes sir.
Q- That is the first time you ever saw him?
A- That is the first time I ever saw him.
Q- Had you told anybody you were there before that time?
A- Nobody only my folks and one or two parties at the shop.
Q- What parties at the shop had you told that you were there?
A- I told some boys yesterday.
Q- Who were the boys?
A-- I don't know as I know all their name I know their first names, that is all I know.
Q- What are their first names?
A- One is named Jack and Kennedy
Q- Jack what?
A- I don't know his name.
Q- What is the other ones name?
A- One is named Kennedy, that is all I spoke to.
Q- Where are they employed?
A- They are working right by the side of me.
Q- How near to you do they work?
A- About 4 feet.
Q- When did you tell them you were there?
A- I told them yesterday at noon.
Q- That is the first time you ever told anybody that you were there
A- I had expressed several times, I had spoken of the meeting. I had never told anybody that I was there except my folks at home.
Q- When did you first tell your folks at home?
A- Right away.
Q- You said you were sitting on the steps just before the bomb went off?
A- I did not.
Q- Where were you?
A- I was standing on the sidewalk?
Q- How far from the steps?
A- When the bomb went off?
Q- Yes.
A- I was about three feet from the steps northeast-- northwest, and southeast--- northeast of the wagon.
Q- How many men were there on the wagon at the time the bomb exploded?
A- There was two standing up, and I think some others, on the other end of it.
Q- How many more on the, other end of it?
A- I don't remember.
Q- Who were the two that were standing up?
A- Fielding and Spies, that was before the bomb went off.
Q- At the time the bomb went off?
A- There was nobody on the wagon.
Q- Just before the bomb went off who was on the wagon?
A- Fielden and Spies.
Q- At the time the officer spoke to Fielden, who was on the wagon?
A- Spies had just got off of the wagon, he was getting off at the time.
Q- Which end of the wagon was he getting off of?
A- The side next to the walk.
Q- That is the east side?
A- Yes sir.
Q- What portion of the wagon did he get off of, the north, south or middle?
A- I think about the middle.
Q- Where did he go after he got off of the wagon, where did he step?
A- I did'nt notice where he stepped.
Q- Did you notice which direction he went?
A- No sir, I did not.
Q- Was Fielden on the wagon when Spies got off?
A- He was on the wagon a second before he almost immediately followed him.
Q- That is, Fielden did?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you notice which direction Fielden went?
A- He went in the same direction-- he jumped off the wagon, that is all I know.
Q- Which direction did he go then?
A- I don't know.
Q- Did you see Spies helped down?
A- I saw Spies reach his hand down as if to be helped and stooped and jumped, that is all I know.
Q- Did you see the man who helped him,
A- I did not.
Q- Did you see what the two men did?
A- I did not.
Q- How, long did you stay where you were?
A- I staid there until the bomb exploded and I stepped back against the wall.
Q- How long did you stand against the wall.
A- About two minutes.
Q- Did you look out after the bomb exploded?
A- I tried to see what was going on but there was do much noise and rushing and jamming that I could not see much.
Q- Did the noise prevent your seeing what was going on?
A- Everybody was jumping and running and crowding over steps and everywhere else.
Q- Which way were the people running?
A- They run north.
Q- Did you see any revolvers near you at that time?
A- I did not.
Q- What was the nearest revolver that you saw to you?
A- I did'nt see any revolver except the flashes.
Q- Where did you see the flashes?
A- They were out in the center of the street.
Q- Did you see any flashes while you were standing there except in the center of the street?
A. - No sir, I did'nt.
Q- You did'nt see any flashes between you and the wagon or near, except in the ceneter of the street, while you were standing there.
A- No sir.
Q- Were you looking in that direction.
A- I was.
Q- You say the people ran in all directions?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did any people run north?
A- They all ran north past me. that I could see.
Q- Did any run south?
A- I could not say.
Q- Did any that got off of the wagon run south?
A- I think they followed the rest of them.
Q- You think the people that got off of the wagon ran north?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Don't you know they ran south?
No sir.
Q- But you think they ran north?
A- Yes sir, I think they ran north.
Q- You were standing there were you?
A- I were.
Q- Was there anybody else standing alongside of you?
A- There was I could see there was crowding all over, past me and all other directions, but did'nt nobody stay there.
How far did you stand from that passage way, those steps?
A- I stood right up against the wall, on the north side of the steps.
Q- Was anybody standing right there against those steps at the time you left?
A- No sir.
Q- Was there anybody lying down there at your feet at the time you left?
A- No sir.
Q- But the space between you and the wagon was clear when you went away so you were the last one to go?
A- I staid there until everybody quit running and the policemen were
up to the corner.
Q- Everybody else was gone and the police were gone?
A- No, sir, the police were up at the Northeast corner.
Q- They dropped back from the wagon?
A- Yes sir.
Q- The space around you was clear then when you left?
A- Yes sir, it was clear.
Q- There was nobody crouched down along by you, alongside of that building?
A- No sir, there was not.
Q- You are positive of that.
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did any policemen come up there and arrest anybody along by that step?
A- I did'nt see them.
Q- Could they while you were there?
A- They did not just as I went away because there was nobody there, they may have before then crowd got away.
Q- There was no shooting between you and the wagon?
A- No sir.
Q-,The only shooting you saw was out in the street?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- And you were looking in that direction?
A- I was.
Q- Now, you got there about 7 o'clock?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You went to this station on the steps, or took your station at the steps?
A- I did'nt I sat down on a peanut stand.
Q- After you had sat down on the peanut stand, about the time the speaking began you took your station on the steps?
A- I saw a crowd walking over there and I went over on the steps
Q- Did you stand on the steps?
A- Yes sir, I was on the next to the top steps.
Q- How high were those steps?
A- About three feet.
Q- How long did you stand there?
A- I stood there until the meeting was very near closed.
Q- What were you doing there?
A- Watching the speakers.
Q- Listening to the speakers?
A Yes sir.
Q- You were there for the purpose of listening?
A- Yes sir, I was.
Q- How far were you from them?
A- About 15 or 20 feet.
Q- Can you tell what Spies said?
A- First he said that the meeting was not brought there for the purpose of exciting riot.
Q- You are sure of that?
A- He went on to way something esle that I don't remember.
Q- The only thing you can remember of his speech was that it was not brought there for the purpose of riot?
A- Yes sir, I supposed that that was what the meeting was there for as I supposed that was a socialistic meeting when I heard his name called.
Q- You supposed the meeting was there for a riot?
A- I had heard of Spies and heard he was a socialist, and when I heard his name called when he was getting on the wagon, I supposed that it was a socialistic meeting, and so I paid close attention to the first words he said.
Q- What made you think that the meeting was called for the purpose of precipitating in a riot?
Objected to; objection sustained:
A- I did'nt say that.
Q- You did'nt say that?
A- No sir.
Q- But Spies said that the meeting was not called for the purpose of inciting a riot?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And that is the only thing you can remember of his speech?
A- Yes sir. I suppose I could remember more than that if I had recalled to me, but I do'nt remember to repeat it.
Q- That is all you can remember yourself?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Who was the next speaker?
A- Fielden, and he was introduced by Spies.
Q- You think that is Spies there, as you call him, sitting at the end?
A- Yes sir.
Q- This man here. (Indicating)
A- That is Fielden.
Q- Which is Fielden, the one with the beard?
A- The one with the beard is the one Spies introdced.
Q- Which is Spies
A- He was such a looking man as that. (indicating)
Q- The man that you call Spies was the first speaker?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You are certain of that?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You were there at what time?
A- At the time he got on the wagon.
Q- He was the man that called the meeting to order?
A- Yes sir.
Q- This man you call Spies?
A- Yes sir.
Q- He spoke how long?
A- I could not say how long exactly, he spoke quite a little while.
Q- After he got through speaking who spoke?
A- Fielden.
Q- Are you certain of that.
A- I am.
Q- Was'nt there a speaker between them?
A- Not that I heard.
Q- You were there all the time?
A- Yes sir.
Q- What did Fielden say?
A- Well, I can't remember what he did say.
Q- Can you remember anything that he said?
A- Not particularly only before the police came.
Q- How long did he speak?
A- I don't think he spoke quite as long as Spies did.
Q- Spies did'nt speak very long?
A- No sir.
Q- Then Fielden necessarily did'nt speak very long?
A- No sir.
Q- Can you tell about how many minutes they spoke?
A- I don't think I could.
Q- Can you tell anything that Fielden said?
A- I don't recall anything that I remember of.
Q- After Fielden got through speaking what happened then?
A- Some other gentleman began speaking then.
Q- Who was it began speaking then?
A- I did'nt know at the time.
Q- Do you know now who it was?
A- I heard that it was Parsons.
Q- Parsons spoke last of all?
A- I think so.
Q- What did Parsons say?
A- He was speaking about money, how mcuh money the laborer got and how much the capitalist got out of a dollar.
Q- Do you remember of his saying that the capitalist got 85 cents and the laboring man got 15 cents out of each dollar?
A- Yes sir.
Q- That interested you because you are a laboring man did it?
A- I thought it was kind of queer, and I remembered it.
Q- Do you remember anything else that was said?
A- No sir.
Q- Could you pick out Parsons here?
A- I could not.
Q- You could'nt tell whcih one of those eight men is Parsons?
A- I could not, only I head his name when he was speaking.
Q- You heard him making that speech?
A- Yes sir
Q- After Fielden had finished?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Do you remember anything else that he said?
A- He proposed to adjourn the meeting to Zeph's hall.
Q- He said that in the course of his speech?
A- I don't know whether he finished at that time or not, I went away as soon as he said it.
Q- That is, he was making his speech at the time he said it?
A- Well, I heard him say it, I don' think he had finished.
Q- You don't know that he had finished when he said it?
A- I think he was speaking yet.
Q- He proposed to adjourn to Zeph's Hall?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And you went to Zeph's Hall did you?
A- yes sir.
Q- How long were you in going to Zeph's Hall?
A- I don't think it took over four minutes.
Q- What time was it when you got there?
A- I did'nt pay any attention, it was before 10 o'clock when I got there.
Q- What did you see after you got there?
A- I did'nt see anything but a big crowd and I walked up stairs.
Q- After you went up stairs then what?
A- I tried to go up stairs and they would'nt let me go in there, they said there was a carpenters meeting up there.
Q- Then you came down?
A- I could not go through no other way, so I went through the saloon.
Q- Into what saloon?
A- Mr. Zeph's, I suppose.
Q- Is that the saloon on the corner with the entrance right diagonally across from the corner?
A- Yes sir.
Q- What then?
A- When I got there I saw two ladies come in it.
Q- Who were the ladies?
A- I saw someone walk up to them and I heard talk and Mr. Parsons introduced one of them as Mrs. Parsons to some gentleman.
Q- What kind of a looking lady?
A- A kind of a heavy lady.
Q- Do you remember anything else about her?
A- No sir, I don't I did'nt pay much attention to the peoples features.
Q- All you know about her was she that she was a heavy lady?
A- Yes sir, I think so.
Q- Did you notice anything about her complexion?
A- She was not very light.
Q- Do you remember whether she was dark or not?
A- Yes sir, she was dark complexion.
Q- Do you remember whether she was a caucasian or not?
A- I don't.
Q- You could not say as to that?
A- I could not say that she was.
Q- Who was the lady with her?
A- I di'nt know at the time.
Q- Did you hear the name of the lady with her?
A- I don't know.
Q- Who was the gentleman that stepped up.
A- I don't know.
Q- Where were they at the time when some gentleman stepped up an was introduced to one of them?
A- They were talking, sitting by the window.
Q- A window at the left of the door?
A- Yes sir, a window at the left of the door, a little south of the stove.
Q- Did they sit on chairs or sit down in the window sill?
A- They sat down at the table.
Q- What else did you see at that time?
A- I did'nt stay
there any longer after that.
Q- What else did you see, Mr. Ingram?
A- I saw quite a crowd of men in there.
Q- How large a crowd of men was in there?
A- Well, I suppose I don't know as it was any larger than saloons usually have some nights, it was not over crowded.
Q- I suppose that the crowds vary at times in saloons?
A- Yes sir, I suppose so, too.
Q- Was it a very large crowd or small one--- was the room full or not?
A- The bar was full and a few standing around the doors, quite a crowd in there.
Q- The bar was full?
A- Around the bar was full, and the entrance to the door going up stairs, there was guite a crowd. There was not very much space.
Q- Were the people standing up or sitting down?
A- Some sitting down, but almost all standing up.
Q- Did you stand up?
A- Yes sir, I stood up.
Q-, How long did you stay there?
A- About two minutes or three and a half, I suppose.
Q-, Where did you go then?
A- Back to the meeting.
Q- How, long had it been from the time you left the merting until you got back?
A- I don't suppose it was over 10 or 15 minutes.
Q- Who was speaking when you got back?
A Mr. Fielden was speaking then.
Q- Can you remember anything that he said?
A- I could not. I got up there and I think I saw him standing there and thought he was talking and I heard some one holler the police were coming and I did'nt pay any attention to what he said.
Q- Can you give a word of his speech?
A- No sir, --yes, sir, I can after the police came I can.
Q- Can you give a word of the speech he was making?
A- No, sir.
Q- The only thing you can remember is his reply to the police?
A- Yes sir.
And that is "We are peaceable"?
A- Yes sir.
RE direct Examination
BY MR. SOLOMON.
Q- Mr. Ingram, you say you did'nt know the lady that came in with Mrs. Parsons at that time, you did'nt know her?
A- No sir, I did'nt know her.
Q- Do you know her now?
A)-, I heard since that she was Mrs. Holmes.
Q- Do you remember whether Mr. Fielden said anything about Congressman Foran?
A- Well, there was some gentleman? I think Mr. Parsons mentioned that man's name when he was talking about--- somebody mentioned his name as being sent up on the labor ticket, that is all I remember about it.
Q- There was some of the speakers said some thing about Congressman
Foran on the labor ticket?
A-, Yes sir.
Q- But you don't know which one it was?
A-, No sir, I think it was Parsons, but I would not say.
Q- You would not say for certain?
A- No sir.
Q- You say you told a number of the men in the shop about this, what you saw and heard there?
A- I did'nt tell anybody about it only until yesterday, I heard some of the boys say something about it and I said I was there, that is all I said about it.
Q- And you told your folks at home right after did you?
A- Yes sir.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. INGHAM.
Q- You say you did'nt know at the time that the lady with Mrs. Parsons was Mrs. Holmes, but you learned so since?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Where have you learned so since?
A- I have learned so from men that were in the saloon and said they saw Mrs. Holmes come in there.
Q- Who were the men that were at the saloon and said they saw Mrs. Molmes come in there?
A- I don't know. I went into Crane Bros. one morning about half past six and there was four or five men standing in the door on the steps there and I heard a couple of them there, one of them said he was over there that time and saw women in there, and another one
said yes, he was there and saw Mrs. Parsons and Mrs. Molmes come in. Some gentleman asked him if he knew them and he said yes, he knew Mrs. Holmes.
Q- And that is the way you knew it was Mrs. Holmes?
A- Yes sir.
Q- When was that?
A- Three or four weeks ago.
Q- Can you give us the names of those men?
A- No sir, I can't, I don't know any of them.
Q- Could you pick them out by sight?
A- There is too many men in that shop.
Q- Could you tell what department they worked in in the shop?
A- I could not.
Q- Could you, by going through the shop, pick out the men that said that?
A- I don't believe I could.
Q- Where was it you met the men?
A- As I came in the shop to work.
Q- What is the name of the foreman under whom you are now working?
A- Schweitzer is his name.
Q- What was the name of the foreman under whom you worked at the Union Brass Works?
A- Well, I can't remember his name now, I believe they called him Willie.
Q- What department were you in at that place?
A- I was in the machine shop there also.
Q- And were there how long?
A- I was there since about the-- oh, I could not say, I was there about two or three months,
I could not say exactly when I did go to work there.
Q- Whom did you come to the Court House with to-day?
A- I came to the Court House with some gentleman from Solomon's office.
Q- Do you know what his name is?
A- I don't.
Q- Whom did you go to Solomon's office with?
A- By myself.
MR. FOSTER; Q- How old are you?
A- 19 years old the 15th. day of this month.
Q- You say you have'nt your trade learned yet?
A- I have not worked at it steady enough to have it learned it, I have worked my term, I suppose.
Q- You say your recollection as to Fielden, Parsons and Spies was only as you heard what their names were as you attended the meeting?
Objected to.
A-, Yes sir.
Q- As between these two gentleman here do you know which is Parsons and which is Fielden (indicating)
A- That one with the big whiskers.
Q- The big whiskered one is who?
A- Fielden. I spoke of him a while ago.
Q- Which one was the one that spoke first?
A- I think Fielden spoke first.
Q- Your recollection is that Fielden spoke first and Parsons
last?
Objected to.
A- Who?
Q- The man that you heard was Parsons?
A- The man I heard was Parsons, I think, spoke third.
Q- That is your recollection now?
A-, Yes sir.
Q- They were all strangers to you?
A- Yes sir, I had'nt never seen nor heard of anybody but Spies.
Q- At the time of the explosion the gentleman with the whiskers was speaking?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Do you remember the gentleman with the whiskers, how many speeches he made that night?
A- I think he spoke twice that night
Q- Made two speeches?
A- They surely did'nt two men speak at once, and I heard Him speak second and speak last, so I suppose he must have spoken twice.
Q- From your position were the faces of the speakers towards you most of the time?
A- Sometimes they truned sideways, but most of the times their face was towards me.
Q- Was there any lamp there on the wagon?
A- No sir, there was not.
Q- Was it light or dark there?
A It was not very dark at first, but it grew dark as the evening went on.
Q- Did you, the next morning tell your father and mother of the fact that you were there and about what happened
there?
A- yes sir I did.
Q- Mentioned the fact that you were there?
A- yes sir.
Q- What is your fathers name?
A- S.E. IngraM.
Q- Where does he live?
A- The same house where I do.
Q- What is his business?
A- He is manager of a heating company in this city.
Q- Where is his office or place of business?
A- On Randolph street
Q- What number?
A- 212.
Q- He is manager of that establishment?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And you told your father what you had seen and all about it the next morning?
A- Yes sir.
Mr. Ingham. (Q) Were there any lights there?
A- There was no lights that I noticed.
Q- Were there any lights along the street?
A- There was along the street before I got to the meting, I did'nt notice any afterwards.
Q- Were there any lights on the speakers stand?
A- The only lights I noticed when I got there was on the southeast corner of the street, a lamp post light.
Q- Did you notice any other lamps lit there?
A- No sir.
A- Joror; I understand you to say that you got the notice of the meeting from that circular, did you?
A- Yes sir,.
Q- And that you had'nt seen the circular since then until
Wednesday?
A- I think it was Wednesday.
Q- And it was in your pocket?
A- Yes sir.
Q- In your every day clothes?
A- No sir, I had on my Sunday clothes that is why I did'nt notice it.
Mr. Foster:- (Q)- You say you had on your Sunday clothes the day you went to this meeting?
A- - Yes sir.
Q- What meeting was it?
A- It was a meeting of the Union Brass Manufaturing Company's men, the boys were on a strike then.
Q- Was it the same suit you have got on now?
A- No sir.
Q- It is your Sunday suit that you don't wear very often?
A- It is a suit that I wear not very often, once in a while on Sunday.
Q- Whereabouts in your Sunday clothes had you this?
A- I had it in my vest pocket.
Q- You took and folded it up and put it in your vest pocket and paid no attention to it since then?
A- I folded it up and put it in my pocket, I did'nt know where the Haymarket was and I thought I would put it in my pocket, and I did'nt think about it.
Mr. Ingham. (Q)-- Now, is that right, that you simply took it, read it and folded it up and put it in your pocket and never took it out until Wednesday?
A- Yes sir.
Q- What did you do, with it Wednesday?
A- I took it and put it on top of my bureau and left it there until this morning.
Q-, Never handled it again until this morning?
A- No sir. I tried to straighten it out a little on Wednesday, it was all torn to pieces.