Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Direct and re-direct examination by Captain Black. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Attended the meeting at the Arbeiter-Zeitung office on May 4 and then proceeded to the Haymarket. Saw Henry Spies help his brother August off the wagon when the police arrived. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): socialists and/or socialism (vol.M 402), the Alarm (vol.M 422), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.M 403), eight-hour movement (vol.M 430), 1886 May 4 meeting of the American Group at the Arbeiter-Zeitung office (vol.M 403), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.M 411), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.M 419), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.M 414), International Workingmen's Association (vol.M 402), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.M 431), Spies, August (vol.M 405), Spies' actions at the Haymarket meeting (vol.M 412), Parsons, Albert (vol.M 404), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.M 406), Parsons, Lucy (vol.M 404), Schwab, Michael (vol.M 404), Fielden, Samuel (vol.M 404), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.M 419), Neebe, Oscar (vol.M 429), attendance of women and children at labor meetings and rallies (vol.M 404).
Testimony of Joseph Bach, 1886 Aug. 7.
Volume M, 402-431, 30 p.
Bach, Joseph.
Tailor; German immigrant.
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[Image, Volume M, Page 402]
2 o'clock P.M., August 7th. 1886.
JOSEPH BACH
a witness called on behalf of the defendants, having duly affirmed testified as follows:--
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLACK
Q- What is your full name?
A- My name is Joseph Bach.
Q- Where were you born?
A- I was born in Germany, Bavaria.
Q- What is your age?
A- My age is 32 years.
Q- When did you come to this country?
I came to this country in May 1874.
Q- Lived here since that time?
A- Since that time.
Q- When did you come to, Chicago?
A- To Chicago I came the year after, in May, 1875.
Q- You have lived in Chicago since that time, have you?
A- Yes sir, since that time.
Q- Are you acquainted with any of the defendants?
A- I am sir.
Q- With which of the defendants?
A- Almost all of them.
Q- You are a socialist, I understand, Mr. Bach.
A- I am a socialist.
Q- And at one time a member---
A- Of the International Working Peoples Association.
Q- Were you in the city of Chicago on the 4th. of May 1886?
A- Yes sir.
Q- In the evening of that day where were you?
A- I was on the Haymarket meeting.
Q- Before going to the Haymarket meeting where were you?
A- I left business about 6 o'clock and went over to the Arbeiter Zeitung office and there I heard of that meeting.
Q- How did you come to go to the Arbeiter Zeitung office.
MR. GRINNELL; How is that material?
THE COURT; It has been put in by several others.
Mr. GRINNELL;- He went there on account of that--
MR. BLACK-- He may answer.
The COURT-- I don't know as it is very material but there had been several others that testified to it.
A- My attention was called to an advertisement in some of the evening papers that a meeting was called of the American Group to meet at the Arbeiter Zeitung office, so I went there to see what was going on, what was up.
Q- About what hour did you reach the Arbeiter Zeitung building?
A- I think it was before 8 o'clock.
Q- How long did you remain there?
A- I remained until the meeting adjourned.
Q- Did you personally observe any telephoning in the office there in the room where the meeting was held while the meeting was in progress?
A- Yes sir, I did.
Q- About what hour was it that you first noticed the telephoning going on?
A- I think it was about 8 o'clock, i could
not state the exact time, I think it was about 10 or 15 minutes past eight.
Q- Who took part in the telephoning in the office?
A- The office boy, I think.
Q- Did any one else step to the telephone, as you remember?
A- Not that I saw.
Q- Who was at the meeting at the time that telephoning was going on, if you remember, or in the room, I will say, instead of at the meeting, who was in the room at the time that telephoning was going on?
A- There was Mr. Fielden and Schwab was there, and Parsons, Mrs. Parsons and Mrs. Holmes, I believe, several ladies, were there with their children, and some others, I don't know their names.
Q- Did you observe what became of Schwab, as to whether he remained in the meeting after the telephoning and if he left how long was it after the telephoning that he went away?
A- To my recollection Schwab left just after the telephone message was received. I Heard the boy telephone that Schwab was present and they could have him for speaker, and as much as I recollect he left immediately after that.
Q- Did you understand, from anything that was said there where the telephone message came from?
A- I heard it was from Deering.
Q- Called for a speaker at Deering?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Schwab, you say then left the room?
A-, Yes sir.
Q- Did you see him again that evening at all?
A- I did not sir.
Q- About what hour, according to your best recollection or judgmen, was it that Schwab left the room?
A- It must be about half past eight.
Q- How long after that did the meeting continue?
A- The meeting did not last very long, I think it adjourned shortly before 9 o'clock.
Q- Where did you go, after the adjournment of the meeting?
A- I went direct to the Haymerket meeting.
Q- Anybody go, with you?
A- There was a gentleman and lady went with me, I don't know their names, I saw them there.
Q- Went from the meeting, that is, at the meeting at the Arbeiter Zeitung building?
A- Yes sir.
Q- What hour did you reach the Haymarket meeting, so called?
A- Shortly before 9 o'clock.
Q- Where did you go after reaching the ground of the meeting?
A- I went on the sidewalk, corner of Desplaines and Randolph, I turned around and I saw the crowd there and I walked on the east sidewalk near the wagon to see who was on the wagon and who was speaking.
Q- Who was speaking at the time you arrived there and went up near the wagon?
A- Mr. Spies was speaking at that time.
Q- Did you take up any location upon the ground there, and if
so, what was it?
A- I walked up and down for a few minutes and stood hear a plumbing shop right on the side walk.
Q- How long did Spies continue to speak after you reached the ground?
A- He did not speak very long, he finished, I believe in 5 or ten minutes, about.
Q- Did you hear any part of Spies speech as you can now recall?
A- In my recollection, I think about what was stated here already. He made some remarks about Jay Gould.
Q- Did Spies speak of Jay Gould or was it Parsons, do you remember
A- No, Spies spoke about McCormick's, I was mistaken, he made remarks about McCormick, holding him responsible for the shooting or rooting that was the day before.
Q- I will ask you whether those remarks, according to your recollection were near the close of Spies speech?
A- I think it was near the close, yes sir.
Q- After Spies ceased speaking what occurred?
A- Spies inquired for Parsons, if Parsons was present, and Parsons stepped upon the wagon, and he started to speak after that.
Q- How long did Parsons speak if you remember?
A- I think he spoke 20 minutes or 25 minutes, about.
Q- Do you remember how long the meeting lasted that ninght?
A- Well, the meeting lasted until the policemen arrived.
Q- And do you remember about what time that was?
A- I think it was about 10 O'clock, or a little after.
Q- How long before the police arrived did Parsons stop speaking, if you remember?
A- It may have been a half an hour or so, I could not state exactly
Q- Who spoke next after Parsons?
A- Fielden.
Q- You knew all three of those parties did you?
A- Yes sir, I know them personally.
Q- So that you recognized them as they were speaking there that night?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you, during the course of the speaking, or any part of it, move about upon the ground to any extent, or on the side walk?
A- Yes sir, I walked up and down. I walked several rimes towards the wagon and back again to get a good stand.
Q- How near to the wagon were you at any one time?
A- I was once as near as that I could touch.
Q- Upon what side of the wagon?
A- On the east side of the wagon on the side walk.
Q- You being on the side walk?
A- On the sidewalk, yes, sir.
Q- Do you remember whether you passed up to the side of the wagon or did you go simply only to the south end of it?
A- I did not pass the wagon, I walked to the wagon and then back again.
Q- But on the sidewalk?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you see any persons there in that immediate vicinity on the sidewalk, whom you knew, any person or persons?
A- I met several I knew by sight.
Q- Whom did you meet there near the wagon?
A- I met one brother-in law of mine there, and staid there quite a while, staid there near the wagon while they were speaking.
Q- Who was the brother-in-law that you speak of?
A- His name is Mitlacher.
Q- Who else did you meet there that night that you knew in the vicinity of the wagon?
A- I think I saw Fischer pass by and several others, I could not just recall their names, but men I knew by sight but didn't know the name of them.
Q- I Will ask you are you acquainted with Henry Spies?
A- Yes, sir, I knew Henry Spies personally.
Q- I will ask you whether you saw him there that night?
A- Yes sir, I saw him standing right near to the wagon, I spoke to him
Q- About what time was it and who was speaking at the time you first saw Henry Spies standing near the wagon and spoke to him as you say?
A- Parsons was speaking that time.
Q- And was it near the close of his remarks or early in his speech, as you remember?
A- I could not state exactly, I think it was about the middle of his speech.
Q- Did you observe Henry Spies after that, as to where he went or where he remained--- in other words, as to whether he went away or whether he staid there?
A- I noticed him near the wagon until the meeting---
Q- Until you went away?
A- Yes, sir until I went away.
Q- In other words, when you were in the neighborhood of the wagon or looking that way, you saw him in about the same place?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You have spoken of taking a position near a pluming shop will you tell us where that position was?
A- The plumbing shop is at the corner of the alley.
Q- On which corner, on the north or the south of the alley?
A- South of the alley.
Q- Across the alley then, from Crane Brothers?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- Are there any other business places in the same building in which the plumbing shop is?
A- I notice there is a saloon in front of it.
Q- The saloon fronts on Randolph Street?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And a plumbing shop at the rear end, corner of the alley?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Is there anything in the location there which allowed you to take a position hear the plumbing shop, any elevation, or anything of that kind?
A- I had been standing on the sidewalk for quite a while listening to, the speakers and later on, almost to the close of the speech, we saw a kind of elevation, a sort of platform before this plumbing shop, and we took a stand on there next to the window.
Q- How high was that platform above the level of the sidewalk; or about how high?
A- May be a half a foot or nine inches.
Q- You say we took a position on the platform, whom do you mean?
A- I mean my - brother-in-law, we stood together.
Q- When was it that you met your brother-in-law there Mr. Mitlacher?
A- Soon after I arrived at the meeting.
Q- I will ask you whether or not you and he were together during the balance of the evening, or in the immediate vicinity of one another?
A- We were together almost all the time we were there, we parted several times by walking up and down.
Q- Where were you when the police came upon the scene of action?
A- I was still standing upon that little platform.
Q- Where did the police stand when they came to a halt with reference to the place where you stood?
A-, They just stopped before the wagon the first column.
Q- In other words the first rank passed beyond you and crossed over the mouth of the alley and stopped near the wagon?
A- Yes sir.
Q-Now, will you tell me what occurred after the police got into that position and came to a halt--- I will ask you first were you still standing, when that happened, upon the platform?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Upon an elevation?
A- Yes sir.
Q- From your elevation could you overlook the heads of the people who were standing in the alley and between you and the wagon?
A- Yes sir, I could.
Q- Were you able in that position to see the wagon clearly and the people who were in it?
A- Yes sir, very clear.
Q- Will you tell me, please, what occurred as you stood there in that position, that was observed by you?
A- I saw one of the policemen stood in front and commande "Halt" so they stopped before the wagon and at the same moment I heard a noise, the Captain, or whatever he was, spoke a few words, "Disperse the meeting" I could not understand distinctly what he said, but I understood he wanted to disperse that meeting and so I looked on the wagon again to see what the speakers were going to do.
Q- Who was speaking at that time?
A- Fielden was speaking.
Q- What did Fielden do?
A- Fielden he stopped and listened to the policeman, and I heard him make a few remarks, and at the same time I turned and told my brother-in-law "Let us go". And at the same time as I looked over to Fielden to see if he still remained speaking or not I noticed these men on the wagon go off of the wagon, I noticed
several of them going off of the wagon and I saw Henry Spies standing on the wagon yet and noticed Mr. Spies trying to get on the sidewalk from the wagon. It was all in a minute, I looked at the wagon and we turned to go off and at the same moment as we done probably one or two steps we heard the loud report of this bomb, what I learned later that it was a bomb.
Q-, Did you know what it was at the time?
A- I did'nt know, I took it for a shot of the gattling gun, that was my impression first.
Q- Do I understand you to say that you saw August Spies getting off of the wagon at the same moment or just at the instant before the bomb exploded?
A Yes sir.
Q- Did you observe whether any one assisted him in getting off of the wagon?
A- I noticed his brother, I don't know whether he reached for him, but I saw him standing on the wagon with his arm up to help him down, that is my impression I had.
Q- Do you mean standing up on the wagon or along by it?
A- Along by it on the sidewalk.
Q- Henry was standing in the same position he had before?
A- I dont know as he had the same position, but he stood near the wagon.
Q- But you saw him assist August to get off of the Wagon?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And that you say was immediately before the explosion?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And after the police officer had demanded the meeting to be dispersed?
A- Yes sir.
Q- What did you see become of Fielden?
A- Well, as soon as we turned, Fielden, I noticed turned around on the wagon but I could not see any more, I did'nt see him go down, I just saw him turn around to make a motion to go down, and we went south on the sidewalk.
Q- Did you at that itme see or hear any pistol shot from the wagon preceding the explosion of the bomb?
A- I did not sir.
Q- Was there any pistol by Fielden or by any other person on that wagon before the bomb exploded?
A- My first impression was that a pistol shot---
Q- Whether there was any pistol fired on the wagon?
A-, My belief is that a pistol shot and the bomb went off almost together.
Q- Where was the pistol shot?
A-, I could not say.
Q- My question is, was there any pistol fired from the wagon before the bomb exploded?
A- I did'nt hear any pistol shot.' no.
Q- Did you hear Fielden or any person else in the vicinity of the wagon just before the police came up and came to a halt, or
at any time before that, say in a loud voice, or in any other voice, "Here comes the blood hounds, you do your duty and I will do mine"?
A- No sir, I did not.
Q- Any thing of that sort said?
A- No sir.
Q- Anything of that sort during that meeting by any person that you heard?
A- I did'nt hear anything of the kind.
Q- Is your hearing good, Mr. Bach?
A- I think it is pretty good.
Q- No defect of hearing?
A- No sir.
Q- After the explosion of the bomb or about simultaneous with the explosion of the bomb did you hear any pistol shots?
A-After the bomb yes sir, I heard lots of them.
Q- Lots of them?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Where did those pistol shots proceed from?
A- I think they all came from the street.
Q- Did you see the flashes of any pistols fired?
A- I saw some, yes sir.
Q- Where did you see those flashes?
A - Just as I passed around the corner I saw flashes coming from the street.
Q- Coming from the street?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you see any flashes or hear any reports of pistol shots from the crowd towards the police who were in the center of the street?
A- I did not sir.
Q- Did you see any firing that night upon the police by anybody?
A- I have'nt sir.
Q- How far, as you stood there upon that platform, were you from the south line of Crane's alley-- in other words, from the north line of the building that you stood in front of?
A- About five or six feet.
Q- I will ask you whether while you stood there you saw any object thrown across the sidewalk between yourself and the wagon into the street--- I will ask you--- to put it in another way, did you see the bomb thrown out of that alley into the street?
A- No sir; I did'nt.
Q- Did you see any burning fuse or other burning object thrown across the sidewalk from the alley into the street?
S- I did not.
Q- Did you see any object thrown from the alley into the street as you stood there?
A- No sir.
Q And, during that time, as I understand you, immediately preceding, the explosion of the bomb, you had been looking steadily at the wagon to see what would be done by the speakers on it?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And you noticed what was done by them?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Had you been looking at the speakers and listening to the speaking for some moments before that?
A- I had, sir.
Q- I will ask you whether at any time shortly before the explosion of the bomb, that is, within an interval of one or two minutes, you had seen August Spies dismount from that wagon and gp to the alley near where you stood?
A- I did not, sir.
Q- Did you see any other person go from the wagon and pass into the alley at an interval of one or two minutes before the bomb exploded?
A- I seen some go from the wagon but not go into the alley.
Q- Where did you go after the bomb exploded?
A- I went into the saloon just around the corner. The quickest I could do was just to step into the door to be safe.
Q- It was in that saloon on the corner was it?
A-, yes sir.
Q- How long did you remain there, or about how long, if you remember?
A- I think about three quarters of an hour.
Q- And then where went you?
A- I went home fromthere.
Q- You were not wounded that evening?
A- No sir.
Q- What became of your brother-in-law, if you know, did he go away with you, or did you and he separte?
A- We separated, he got around the corner guicker than I and he run down Randolph Street.
Q- When did you afterwards see him the next time?
A- The next morning.
Q- At the time of the explosion in what directi n were you facing, if you remember?
A- I was facing south then.
Q- You had turned then, if I understand, after hearing the order to disperse, and saw August Spies in the act of dismounting, with the aid of his brother, you turned south to, leave?
A- Yes, sir, to leave.
Q- And at that instant you heard the explosion?
A- yes sir.
Q- Did you see the explosion yourself?
A- I saw the flashes.
Q- In what direction were they from where you stood facing the street?
A- I think they were diagonal from me across the street.
Q- Across the street from you?
A- More diagonal.
Q- West of you there?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Do you remeber what was said by Parsons that evening in the course of his speech--- or that night?
A- I remember that he dwelt a good deal on statistics, compared socialism with Knights Laborism and Labor Unionism. He made some remarks about Jay Gould hiring Pinkerton police to protect the scabs and so on, that is about all that I remember.
Q- When Parsons spoke of Jay Gould did you hear any response from the crowd?
A- Yes sir, I heard a response, "Hang Him."
Q- What if anything, did Parsons say to that?
A- He said no, that would be no good, because if you hang one Jay Gould hundreds will follow. It is not the man, it is the system we are after", he said.
Q- Did you hear him use an illustration, refer to dogs and fleas?
A- Yes sir, I heard that.
Q- About what was it that he said on that subject or used that illustration?
A- As much as I recollect he pictured the capitalistic system as a dog with lots of fleas and that the Knights of Labor they are trying to kill the fleas, and the socialists, they just wanted to remove that dog and then they will have the fleas out of the hair, too. That is about what I recollect of it.
Q- Do you remember any features or to use a better term, any portions of Fieldens speech?
A- I didn't pay very close attention to Fielden's speech, because during that time I spoke a good deal to my brother-in-law who was standing beside me. I remember only what he spoke about an Ohio Congressman, telling the laborers that they can not expect any thing of legislation, something in that sense he remarked, that is about what I recollect.
Q- Do you remember the name of the Congressman whom he referred to?
A- Foran, I believe.
Q- Now, Mr. Bach, do you remember during the time you were there the conduct and bearing of the audience prior to the coming upon the scence of the police--- the question is, did you notice them did you observe them?
A- yes sir, I spoke about that, that the meeting--the crowd was very orderly, they were rather enthusiastic and more laughing going on than applauding.
Q- You saw no disturbances of any kind?
A- No sir.
Q- Any fights?
A- No, sir.
Q- Nothing in the nature of a riot or of that nature at any time during that meeting prior to the coming on the ground of the police
A- No sir, I did not.
Q- How large was the meeting at the time the police came there as compared with its dimensions at any previous period of the meeting?
A- At the time when the police came?
Q- At the time when the police came?
A- I think there was about half of them that were there first. They had thinned out a good deal.
Q- Do you remember any particular time when any number of people went away?
A- Just when that dark cloud came I noticed a good many leave.
Q- Did you hear anything said by any one at that time in reference to any proposed adjournment of the meeting?
A- Yes, sir, I heard that.
Q- What was said?
A- Some one made the remark to adjourn to some hall in the neighborhood, I don't know the name.
Q- Zeph's Hall?
A- Yes sir, Zeph's Hall. And Fielden answered "No, I have just come to the c nclusion and will be through in a few minutes.
Q- How long was it after Fielden made that remark in effect "No, I am about hrough and will be through in a few minutes", how long after that was it that the police came upon the ground and came to a halt and the meeting commanded to disperse?
A- That was about 5 to 10 minutes, I guess.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. GRINNELL.
Q- Where do you live?
A- I live at 620 Sedgwick Street.
Q- How long have you lived there?
A- Lived there since last November.
Q- Where did you live before that?
A- 282 Hurlbut.
Q- What is your business?
A- I am a taylor.
Q- Where is your shop or where do you work?
A- I work in a store, 126 Dearborn street near Madison.
Q- For whom?
A- Mr. Heine, Frank Heine.
Q- How long have you worked there?
A- Over four years.
Q- When was it that you saw the notice about the American Group meeting at the Arbeiter Zeitung office?
A- The evening of May 4th.
Q- What group did you belong to?
A- North side group.
Q- How long have you been a member of the North side group?
A- Over two years.
Q- How long have you been a member of the internationals?
A- Since 1883.
Q- Do you know any of the defendants?
A- I know them all.
Q- Which of the defendants did you know as belonging to the North side group which is the group that Schwab belongs to, is'nt it?
A- Yes sir, I guess Schwab is the only one.
Q- What?
A- Schwab and Neebe, I guess.
Q- Do you know Fischer?
A- Yes sir, I know Fischer.
Q- What group does he belong to?
A- I don't know that, some group on the West Side.
Q- Northwest side?
A- I don't know that.
Q- He lives up in Milwaukee avenue?
A- I don't know that.
Q- Do you know Ling?
A- I know Ling, yes, sir.
Q- How long have you known Ling?
A- I guess I know him about five or six months, if I am not mistaken.
Q- Where did you see him?
A- I saw him in meetings.
Q- Do you know Engel?
A- I know Engel slightly, yes sir.
Q- Where did you see him?
A- I saw him also in meetings.
Q- What is the given name of your brother-in-law?
A- Max Mitlacher.
Q- What group does he belong to?
Objected to.
Q- How long have you been connected with the Alarm?
A- With the Alarm I was not connected at all.
Q- Never?
A- I dont think so.
Q- Never had anything to do with it at all?
A- (No answer).
Q- You are one of the bureau of information of the internationals?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- Which asvertised itself in the Alarm?
A- That may be.
Q- You have seen the Alarm?
A- I have, yes sir.
Q- You have seen that notice too, haven't you?
A- I don't know, I guess I saw it before, yes, sir.
Q- How long were you connected with that Bureau of Information?
A- About a year or year and a half or so.
Q- Where were you standing that night when Spies spoke?
A- When Spies spoke I stood on the South Side walk-- on the east sidewalk, I want to say, south of the alley.
Q- How long have you known Spies?
A- About six or seven years.
Q- You are one of the directors of the Arbeiter Zeitung, are you not?
A- I am sir.
Q- Elected last June?
A- Yes, sir.
Q- Now, again, where were you standing when Spies spoke? I did'nt hear your answer, that is the reason I ask it over again?
A- I stood south of Cranes alley on the sidewalk.
Q- Where abouts on the sidewalk?
A- Sometime on the edge of it. I walked around, I did'nt keep standing right along, I walked around.
Q- Was your brother-in-law with you all the time?
A- He was with me most of the time.
Q- When did you see him first after you got over there?
A- I saw him just about 9 o'clock
Q- Your brother-in-law?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Saw him standing there?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Where di you see him standing there first?
A- Right in the same place.
Q- How many t mes have you been in this court room since this trial began?
A- I have been here three times, I guess, only half days, afternoon sessions.
Q- Have you been here all day to day?
A- No sir, I was in the witness room.
Q- Yesterday you were not here?
A- No sir.
Q You were not in the court room yesterday?
A- No sir.
Q- How long did you stand south of the alley before you went north of it?
A- It might be about five or six minutes. I passed the alley and walked to the wagon and back again and walked up there again.
Q- Where were you when Parsons was introduced as speaker?
A- I was in the place I had first.
Q- South of the alley?
A- South of the alley.
Q- A good many people there?
A- Yes, sir, there was quite a crowd there.
Q- When did you go north of the alley first--- how long had Parsons been speaking when you went on the north side of the alley?
A- He had been speaking a few minutes.
Q- Well, how many, five ten or how many?
A- That is hard to tell.
Q- Did you stay there with your brother-in-law?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Did you see Henry Spies there across the alley?
A- Yes sir, I saw Henry Spies across the alley first and then I walked over to him.
Q- Where was he standing?
A- Right on the side of the wagon by the sidewalk.
Q- You talked to him there?
A- I talked just a few words with him.
Q- And your brother-in-law?
A- My Brother-in-law did'nt take any stock in it, he walked there with me and stood on the side.
Q- How long did you stand there?
A- Just a few minutes and went back again.
Q- Went back to the south edge of the alley again, did you?
A- Yes sir.
Q- How long did you stay there before you walked back again?
A- Probably a few minutes again.
Q- A good many people standing around there?-- did they increase in numbers?
A- Not just in that place, it seemed to increase more in the street.
Q- Did you walk back to the alley when Fielden was speaking?
A- I don't know that I did when Fielden was speaking.
Q- How much time did you spend up there next to the wagon?
A- Probably three of four minutes.
Q- And the balance of the time you were down south of the alley?
A- I mean two or three minutes at a time.
Q- How many times were you there, standing three or four minutes?
A- About twice.
Q- Did you walk down to the corner as far as Randolph Street when you were walking backwards and forwards?
A- No, sir.
Q- How much space did you walk over there?
A- About 12 or 15 feet that is all.
Q- Do you remember a door way into that saloon?
A- Yes sir, on the side.
Q- Do you remember the entrance way to it?
A- Yes sir, entrance way to the saloon.
Q- There are some iron bars on each side?
A- Yes sir, I saw them.
Q- Did you sit down on those?
A- I did not.
Q- Did you see anybody sitting down on them?
A- I guess there was some one leaning against it.
Q- Did yu see any one sitting on it?
A- Not as I know of.
Q- Where is this doorway with reference to that alley, is it north or south of it?
A- It is south of the alley the doorway is in the middle of the building.
Q- This platform you were standing was between that door way and the alley?
A- The railing run from the side of the building to that plumbing shop, and where the railing stops there the platform is where we stood.
Q- Where was the platform?
A- Right next to the window.
Q- Which side, north or south of that door?
A- It was north of the door of the saloon.
Q- It was north of the door at which there is some iron railing up?
A- Yes sir.
Q- How far north of the door is that?
A- About 35 or 40 feet I should judge.
Q- This platform is how much higher than the sidewalk?
A- I think it is about something over half a foot, may be nine inches, I could not tell exactly.
Q- Eight or nine inches high?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Is there an iron railing around it?
A- Around the platform?
Q- Yes%.
A- No sir.
Q-, You can go on to it at any place you please?
A- Yes sir.
Q- How long had you been there when you heard the officer tell Fielden and the meeting to disperse?
A- I had been standing on that platform when Fielden was speaking and the meeting almost closed, I may say, about 10 minutes.
Q- Then you stood there nearly all the time Fielden was speaking.
A- Not all the time.
Q- Ten or fifteen minutes of the last end of it?
A- Yes, sir may be.
Q- You were standing there when the bomb exploded?
A-, I was standing there, yes, sir.
Q- How many feet should you say that was from the wagon?
A- About 10 or fifteen feet.
Q- The alley is 11 feet wide?
A- It may be a few feet more, I can't tell, I didn't measure it off.
Q- And the wagon was six or eight feet north of the alley?
A- I think the hind end of the wagon may be four or five feet-- it was standing in a slanting way.
Q- Was it four or five feet north of the edge of the alley?
A- It may be four or five feet, I could not tell you.
Q- How far were you south from the edge of the alley?
A- When do you mean, what time?
Q- When you heard the officer step up and speak to Fielden?
A- I have been standing on that platform then.
Q- I know, and you have told us where that platform was, and that you were standing on that part of the platform towards the door, that you have explained to us?
A- Yes sir.
Q- The door that has an iron railing on each side of it?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And did not sit down on that rail at any time?
A- No sir, I did not.
Q- There is where you stood when the bomb exploded?
A- Yes sir.
Q- How many people were there between you and the wagon?
A- There was not very many, the crowd was pretty thin at that time.
Q- At the time the officer came up?
A- Yes sir.
Q- That is the time you saw Henry Spies?
A- No, sir, I saw Henry Spies before.
Q- But you saw Henry Spies get off the wagon when the officer came up?
A- August Spies got off.
Q- Did you see Henry Spies get off when the officer came up?
A- I saw him standing side of the wagon.
Q- Did you see Henry Spies assist August Spies from off the wagon?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Then you did see that from where you were?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And your brother-in-law saw it?
A- I don't know what he seen.
Q- You talked to him about it?
A- Yes sir, but I don't know exactly what he said.
Q- Did'nt he tell you what he saw?
A- That is not my business.
Q- Have'nt you told him what you saw?
A- I guess I did.
Q- Has'nt he told you what he saw?
A- I don't know if he did.
Q- What is your best remembrance about that? You talked it over what you saw and heard there, did'nt you?
A- Yes sir, we talked it over and he made some remark that he saw it. I dont know exactly what he saw, if he saw everything that I saw I could not tell.
Q-,The bomb exploded in the street Northwest from you?
A- About north west, yes sir.
Q- Where with reference to the alley should you say it exploded?
A- In reference to the alley I think it was more a little way from the length of that building.
Q- Have you vsiited Spies or any of the others in jail since they have been in there?
A- I visited them once, yes, sir.
Q- Has your brother-in-law?
A- I could not tell.
Q- I understood you to say that you were one of the trustees or directors of the Arbeiter Zeitung, elected last June?
A- Yes sir.
Q- And also a stockholder in the Alarm?
A- Stockholder, I don't know that.
Q- Did'nt you contribute some money?
A- I did once but I don't consider that a stockholder.
THE COURT; Last June two months ago?
A- Yes sir, 1885.
MR. GRINNELL; Q- You have been reelected?
A- Yes sir.
Q- You have been re-elected lately?
A- Yes sir, I have been re-elected three times.
Q- When did you first tell the defendants lawyers or any of them or any of the defendants about what you saw and heard that night?
A- I told them about it, I guess, about a week ago--- several times.
Q- You told them about a week ago and you have told them several times since?
A- Not exactly what I see. I told them I was in that meeting and I know it from the beginning to the end, and I wamt to give my testimony if necessary?
Q- You told it about a week ago?
A- Yes sir.
Q- For the first time?
A- Yes sir.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLACK.
Q- Mr. Bach, how much did you contribute to the Alarm?
A- I guess it was $2.
Q- And do you remember when you made that contribution or about when?
A- It may be a year ago, I could not recollect exactly.
Q-, When was it you were a member of the north side group?
A- I was a member ever since the international organized.
Q- You are still a member are you?
A-Yes sir
Q- Has that group ever had any arms to your knowledge?
A- Not the group, no sir.
Q- Do you know whether Neebe is still a member of that group?
A- I could not tell, no sir.
Q- When did you last see Neebe at any meeting of the group?
A- I think I saw him in the north side about two weeks before May the 1st.
Q- Do you remember what the business that was transacted in the group at that time was?
MR. GRINNELL; Well, that we object to.
THE COURT; Yes, I think that ought to be admissible.
MR. BLACK; Q- You may answer the question.
A- I think it was an agitation meeting to see about organizing labor unions for eight hour movement.
Q- That was a meeting then, looking to and having reference to the eight hour movement?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Was there anything else transacted at that meeting that you remember of, or at any other meeting at which Mr. Neebe was present except labor agitation?
A- Nothing except agitaion meetings, and sometimes business meetings.
Q- What do you mean by business meetings?
A- Just where they settled business, settled expenses and so on, collect dues and so on of whoever belongs to it.
Q- Was the north side group a secret order, or were the meetings public and open?
A- They were all public.
Q- No oaths or obligations or anything of that kind in connection with it?
A- No sir.
Q- You spoke of the north side group, what was that group, I mean by that what was its designation-- group of what?
A- Group of the International.
Q- Of the International Working People's Association?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Are you a member of any armed group?
A- No sir.
Q- Were you ever?
A- Yes sir.
Q- Of what armed group were you a member?
A- I belonged to the Lehr and Wehr Verein.
Q- When?
A- About three years ago.
Q- Are you still a member of that group?
A- No sir.
Q- When did your connection with it cease?
A- About three years ago.
MR. GRINNELL;
Q- What was your number?
Objected to.
A- I did'nt have any number.