Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Direct and re-direct examination by Zeisler. Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified through an interpreter. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Requested a speaker for a meeting of the Lumber Shovers' on May 3, 1886 on the Black Road and was told that August Spies would speak. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.M 218), eight-hour movement (vol.M 221) religion (vol.M 223), Central Labor Union (vol.M 218), Lumber Shovers' Union (vol.M 218), Spies, August (vol.M 218), Lingg, Louis (vol.M 224).
Testimony of Henry Witt, 1886 Aug. 6.
Volume M, 218-228, 11 p.
Witt, Henry.
Lumberman, delegate for the Lumber Shovers' Union to the Central Labor Union; German immigrant.
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[Image, Volume M, Page 218]
HENRY WITT,
a witness called on behalf of the defendants, was duly sworn and testified through the interpreter, as follows:
Direct Examination
By Mr. Zeisler.
Q Your name is Henry Witt?
A Yes sir.
Q Where do you reside, Mr. Witt?
A 45 McMullen Court.
Q What is your business?
A I am a lumber working man.
Q Do you belong to any labor union?
A No.
Q Do you not belong to the Lumber Shovers' Union?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you belong to that union on May the 2d?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know whether the Lumber Shovers' Union was at that time represented by delegates in the Central Labor Union In Chicago?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was the delegate at that time, if you know?
A I.
Q Were you present at a meeting of the Central Labor Union on May the 2d?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was anything said there in the meeting of the Central Labor Union about a speaker who should address the Lumber Shovers' Union on May the 3d?
A I was ordered to obtain a speaker from the Central Labor Union--from our union.
Q Did you make that request at the meeting of the Central Labor Union?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was said about it?
A It was said that Mr. Spies should come.
Q Now, were you at the meeting of the Lumber Shovers' Union on May the 3d near McCormick's factory?
A Yes sir.
Q Where was that meeting held?
A On Lincoln street and Blue Island avenue.
Q How far from McCormick's factory is that?
A I think three blocks.
Q Three blocks east or west from McCormick's?
A East.
Q Did you see Mr. Spies there?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many people were assembled there?
A There might have been 6000 or 7000.
Q How many in that crowd were members of the Lumber Shovers' Union?
Mr. GRINNELL: How can he tell that?
Mr. ZEISLER: Q How large is the membership of the Lumber Shovers' Union?
A There might have been 4000 to 5000.
Q Do you know what proportion of that crowd were members of the Lumber Shovers' Union and which were not?
Mr. GRINNELL: How can he tell anything about that.
THE COURT: The question is proper.
A Well, I can't state precisely.
Mr. ZEISLER: Well, give us your estimate as to the proportion?
A There might have been 3,000.
Q 3000 of the people assembled there, were members of the Lumber Shovers' Union, and the balance were not?
A Yes, sir.
Q About what time did Mr. Spies commence talking?
A At half past three o'clock.
Q Who introduced Mr. Spies as speaker, if anybody?
A A member of the committee by the name of Breest.
Q Did you hear anybody make a remark about Mr. Spies being a socialist and that he should not speak?
Objected to; objection overruled.
A No, that I can't say. As Mr. Spies was introduced, there were persons demanded that Spies should speak.
Q Do you know Harrister?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did he make any remark about Mr. Spies being a socialist and that he should not speak?
A No sir. He acquiesced in it.
Q About what time did you say was it when Spies commenced talking?
A Half past three o'clock.
Q Did you hear the bell of McCormick's factory ring during Mr. Spies' speech?
Mr. INGHAM: That certainly is leading. The whole of this examination is leading.
THE COURT: That is perhaps objectionable on the score of being leading.
Mr. ZEISLER: At any time there?
THE COURT: Put it as you had it at first. Did you hear the bell of McCormick's factory ring while Spies was speaking?
A Yes sir, the bell.
Mr. ZEISLER: Q Now, can you give us the substance of Mr. Spies' speech, as far as you remember?
A Mr. Spies was speaking in our interest and said to us that we should stick to the eight hour movement--plan--proposition.
Q What else did he say?
A As the bell was ringing, or when the bell rung, he said that the people should remain and should not go.
Q Did he mention or did he say anything about threats made by the bosses?
A No, sir.
Q Did he say anything about the threats made by the bosses to lock you out and what you should do in regard to it?
Mr. INGHAM: He has already said he didn't say anything.
THE COURT: Put the question.
Q (Question read)
A I didn't hear that.
Q Now, when the bell rang, what happened?
A Some people that were standing in the rear by Blue Island avenue went over to the factory, those might have been 300 to 500 men.
Q After the bell rang?
A After the bell rang.
Q Do you remember whether Mr. Spies in the course of his speech mentioned McCormick's factory, or the scabs of McCormicks factory?
A That might have been, but I didn't hear it.
Q Is there any connection between the Lumber Shovers' Union and the workmen employed by Mr. McCormick?
A Not at all.
Q Now, what did Mr. Spies say, if anything, about those
people running away towards McCormick's?
A Mr. Spies wanted the people to remain.
THE COURT: What did he say, that is the question.
Mr. ZEISLER: Q What did he say?
A He said they should remain there. They had nothing to do at McCormick's.
Q Now, after that, did Spies continue to speak or did he stop?
A Mr. Spies did not allow himself to be disturbed any further but continued to speak.
Q How long after that did Spies speak?
A I think it might have been about 15 minutes.
Q Did you see any police in the neighborhood there?
A Yes. sir, three patrol wagons came and several came marching on foot.
Q About how many came on foot?
A There might have been about 200 of them.
Q Did you hear anything prior to the police coming there that attracted your attention, near McCormick's factory?
A No, as the bell was ringing, or when the bell rang, the people ran down, nothing further.
Q Did you hear any shooting down there?
A Yes sir, after the police had gone down we heard shooting.
Q After the police had passed you did Spies continue to talk there?
A Yes sir, he still spoke for a time.
Q Now, after the three patrol wagons had passed you, and after those 200 policemen on foot had passed you, Mr. Spies
was still talking, was he?
THE COURT: Let him do the testifying.
Mr. ZEISLER: Q How long did Spies continue to talk with reference to the appearance of the police that came there on foot?
A About 10 minutes.
Q Are you a socialist?
A No, sir.
Q Are you an anarchist?
A No sir.
Q Did you ever belong to a socialistic organization of anykind?
A No sir.
Q What part of Germany did you come from?
A Mechlinburg, the northern part of Germany.
Q Do you attend church?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you attend church was my question?
A Yes, sir.
Q What church do you go to?
A Lutheran.
Q After Spies had finished his speech, was there anything said about a committee that were to call upon the bosses?
A That was resolved before hand.
Q Was the committee elected after that?
A No, before that.
Q Now, was there anything said about Mr. Spies in connection with that committee?
A Yes sir, Spies was put on the committee afterwards.
Q Who made the motion, if anybody?
A He was proposed from the members, that is, from the members of the union.
Q Was the motion put to a vote in some form or other?
A Yes sir, it was voted upon and it was accepted.
Q What was said about the object of that committee?
A It was to treat with the bosses.
Cross Examination
By Mr. Ingham.
Q Where was the meeting of the central Labor Union which you have testified to here?
A 54 West Lake street.
Q Were you a delegate to that union?
A Yes sir.
Q How long had you been a delegate to that union?
A I was elected in the month of May, or appointed.
Q Had you ever been a delegate before that?
A No.
Q How long had your Lumber Shovers' Union been connected with the Central Labor Union?
A Since the 4th of April.
Q Do you know Lingg?
A Yes sir.
Q How long have you known Lingg?
A Since that time.
Q Where did you meet him?
A Blue Island avenue and 20th street, in the saloon of Mr. Letker's.
Q When was it you met him there?
A The 4th of April.
Q Did you see him at other times?
A Yes sir, at the Central Labor Union and not otherwise.
Q When you saw him in the saloon, was there a meeting there?
A Yes sir, at that time we had a meeting.
Q Meeting of what?
A The Lumber Shovers' Union.
Q Was Lingg present at that meeting?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know Engel?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did Lingg do, if anything, at that meeting?
Objected to;
Objection withdrawn.
Q Did Lingg make speeches at that meeting?
A Yes sir.
Q What time did you get to the meeting near McCormick's?
A Quarter to three.
Q Before the meeting was called to order or after?
A Previous.
Q Were you there when Spies first got on to the car where the speeches were made?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you there when Faling got onto that car?
A I don't know him.
Q The man who spoke just before Spies?
A Yes sir, I saw him.
Q Did anybody object to either of those two men, Spies or Faling, speaking?
Objected to.
THE COURT: When they have given their testimony as to a particular meeting and then you call witnesses also as to the meeting, either of you has the right, in examining the other's witnesses, to go into all the details.
Exception by defendants.
Mr. INGHAM: Q Was there any objection to either Faling or Spies speaking?
A I said to the first speaker that he should not go on with his speech, because the meeting had not been opened.
Q Was there any objection to Spies speaking?
A No.
Q Who was the first speaker?
A I don't know him.
Q Was there any struggle to obtain possession of the car between speakers?
A No.
Q You heard the McCormick bell ring, did you?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, what did Mr. Spies say at that time?
A The people should remain there.
Q Did he say that the people should not go to McCormick's?
A Yes sir.
Q Did he say that the people there had no interest in the McCormick trouble?
A Yes, sir.
Q What else did he say?
A At that moment he said that they should remain there quietly and that they should not go over there, that these two things did not belong together.
Q Did he, at any time urge anybody to attack McCormick's?
A No sir.
Q Did he go to McCormick's himself?
A No sir.
Q How many people went to McCormicks?
A I estimated them to be about 300 to 500.
Q Did the Lumber Shovers' Union, whose meeting you were attending at that time, have any interest whatever in the McCormick trouble?
A No.
Q The Lumber Shovers' Union had met there simply to discuss the question of their obtaining 8 hours of their bosses, did they not?
A Yes, sir.
Q They did not meet there for the purpose of discussing the McCormick troubles at all?
A No sir.
Q What time did Spies leave there?
A Quarter past 4.
Re-Direct Examination
By Mr. Zeisler.
Q At the time that you told Fahling not to speak was Spies present?
A No sir.
Q Now, what was the object of the meeting at which you said Lingg spoke, or you heard Lingg make a speech?
A It was in regard to our union.
Q Was it not the meeting at which the Lumber Shovers' Union was first formed, organized?
A It was the second meeting.
Q Do you remember what Lingg said?
A No.
Q Did you hear him say anything about dynamite?
A No.
Q Did you see where Mr. Spies went after the meeting adjourned?
A As much as I saw, he followed us towards Blue Island avenue and 20th street.
Q When you say "As much as I saw" do you mean that you didn't look at him all the time?
THE COURT: If you want to know what he saw of Spies, why don't you let him tell.
Mr. ZEISLER: When he says "As much as I saw" I want him to explain what he means by that.
THE COURT: What you want to get at is how much he saw Spies during that afternoon.
Mr. ZEISLER: When you say, "As much as I saw," what do you
mean by that?
A I mean that I saw him.
Q Where did you see him?
A On Blue Island avenue about the neighborhood of 20th street.