Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Arrested and detained for one day in connection with the Haymarket incident Direct examination by Mr. Zeisler. Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Attended the Haymarket meeting but left before the bomb exploded. Arrested and detained in connection with the bombing. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.M 165), advocating revolution (vol.M 160), learned about the Haymarket meeting in the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.M 162), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for conspiracy (vol.M 156), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.M 162), International Rifles (vol.M 167), Central Labor Union (vol.M 164), Engel, George (vol.M 158), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.M 156). AUGUST KRUEGER, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. Zeisler and testified as follows: Q. What is your name? A. August Krueger. Q. Are you also known as the little Krueger? A. I think so too. Q. Where were you on the night of May 4th? A. I was in the Hay Market. Q. I will ask you whether you saw that man here who is represented on this picture, marked People's "Exhibit 5"? A. Whether I seen him at the Hay Market. Q. Whether you saw him there at any time that night? A. I did. Q. Where were you when you saw him? A. I was standing with Mr. Lehnart on the west side of Desplaines Street. Q. Where? A. About 30 to 40 feet from Randolph St. Q. Thirty or forty feet north of Randolph? A. North of Randolph. Q. How far south of Crane's alley would you judge? A. I can't remember. Q. Do you remember Lehnert, I believe you mentioned his name? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is his first name? A. Leonard Lehnert. Q. Now state under what circumstances you saw the man who is represented by this picture? A. He came walking over. MR. GRINNELL. Don't state what you said nor what he said. MR. ZEISLER. Q. State under what circumstances you saw him--where did he come from? A. He come from the north east. Q. About what time was that? A. About ten o'clock. Q. Were you at the hay market at the time of the explosion of the bomb? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know when the bomb exploded--did you hear the explosion? A. I did not. Q. Did you know at the time the name of that man? A. Well, I know him well but I didn't know his name? Q. Do you know his name now? A. I know him now. Q. Who told you who that was? A. Mr. Furthman. Q. How long did Mr. Schnaubelt stay there with him? A. Well about five minutes. Q. What did you see him do after that? A. Well, he wanted to go home, and he wanted me to go along, and I went with him. Q. Did you see him go away from there? A. Yes sir, I went with him. Q. On what street did you go with him, how far? A. I walked to Randolph Street, walked on Randolph St. down to Clinton and there I left him. Q. In what direction did he go? A. He went down Randolph St. further and I went off. Q. He went east on Randolph Street? A. East on Randolph Street. Q. You turned north on Clinton? A. Yes. Q. Is that the last you saw of Schnaubelt? A. That is the last. Q. Did you see him since that time? A. No, sir. Q. Where did you go after that? A. I walked down Milwaukee Ave., and went into Engle's house. Q. What time was it when you reached Engle's house? A. Maybee fifteen minutes past ten-- I cant tell exactly. Q. Do you remember who was there? A. Mr. Engle and his wife. Q. Did you see anybody else there? A. Not at the time I came. Q. What did you do there together? A. Well I stayed there and drank a pint of beer. Q. Who came in after that? A. Mr. Waller. Q. Godfried Waller? A. Godfried Waller. Q. What did he say when he came in? A. He said he came from the hay market. Q. Now, What did Waller say? A. He said that he came from the Hay Market, and there was three hundred men shot by the police, and there ought to be something done--we ought to go down there. Q. What did Mr. Engle say to that? A. Mr. Engle said no, it was a foolish act, and the revolution ought to grow out of the people, and this was nonsense, butchery, and he didn't sympathize with it, that Waller had better go home as quick as possible. Q. He told Waller to go home as quick as possible? A. Yes sir. Q. Did he say anything in that connection about the policemen? A. He said there was a great many killed. Q. What did Mr. Engle say about the policemen--what did he say about them? A. He said they are just as well people there, that is nonsense at the Hay Market, whoever did so done a foolish thing to throw that bomb shell. Q. Did he say how he understood a revolution would have to come about and should come about? A. He said that the policemen ought to go with the people and the militia also. Q. Did he say under what circumstances the police and the militia would go with the people? A. If the revolution would grow out of the people. Q. If the revolution would grow out of the masses--is that what he said? A. That is what he said, that the greatest number of police would go with us and there would not be much blood spilt. Q. Didn't he say anything about throwing away arms. Did he say anything about that, and then ask him what he said about it? A. Yes, he said when the police and militia throw away their arms and go with the people. Q. When did he say the police and militia would throw away their arms and go with the people? A. That night when Waller was there. Q. I mean under what circumstance would the police and militia throw away their arms--what did he say about that? A. Well if the people would revolt in masses, the revolution would grow out of the people--then was the time. Q. And to Waller he said to go home? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you lived in the City of Chicago? A. Seven years. Q. How long have you been in the United States? A. Seven years about. Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-one. Q. What is your business? A. Draughtsman. Q. For whom? A. I work for the Northwestern Terra Cotta works. Q. You are a socialist, are you not? A. Yes, sir.
Testimony of August Krueger, 1886 Aug. 5.
Volume M, 156-167, 12 p.
Krueger, August.
Draughtsman; German immigrant.
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CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. INGHAM.
Q. Your name is Krueger?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. August Krueger?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. The little Krueger you are sometimes called?
A. They call me so.
Q. How old are you?
A. Twenty-one years.
Q. That was to distinguish you from whom--whom do they call the big Krueger?
A. Reinholdt Krueger.
Q. Who is he?
A. He is dead now.
Q. Is he a relation of yours?
A. No, sir.
Q. Only the same name?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Waller?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you known him?
A. About a year.
Q. Do you know Spies?
A. By sight.
Q. How long have you known him by sight?
A. About two or three years.
Q. Where have you seen him?
A. Several meetings.
Q. What kind of meetings, meetings of what?
A. Turner hall.
Q. Meetings of what organization?
A. Socialistic meetings.
Q. Do you know Schwab?
A. Yes, by sight.
Q. How long have you known him by sight?
A. Two or three years.
Q. Where did you know him?
A. I see him in meetings also.
Q In what meetings?
A. Socialistic meetings.
Q. Do you belong to any socialistic organization?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever?
A. I never did.
Q. Did you belong to the Lehr Und Wehr Verin?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What company?
A. Company 2.
Q. Did you hold any office in it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What office?
A. Orderly Sargeant.
Q. What else?
A. Corresponding Secretary.
Q. What was your number?
A. Eight.
Q. You say you went to the Hay Market meeting on Tuesday night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you come to go there?
A. I know there was a meeting.
Q. How did you know there was a meeting?
A. Out of the paper Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q. Is that all you know about it.
Objected to.
A. I know it the night before.
Q. What night?
A. Monday night.
Q. Monday night where?
A. The meeting was not for the armed organizations.
Q. You knew it from that also?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you known Engel?
A. About one year.
Q. Where did you know Engel?
A. I see him in meetings.
Q. Meetings of what?
A. Socialistic.
Q. Where have you seen in meetings of socialists?
A. 636 Milwaukee avenue.
Q. What place is that?
A. Phalia Hall.
Q. Is that where the Northwestern groop met?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You seem him at those meetings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How often have you seen him at meetings there?
A. Several times.
Q. When was the last time you saw him at meetings there?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Did you see him on Sunday before the 4th of May?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. Emma Street Hall.
Q. What time of day?
A. In the morning.
Q. Do you know Lingg?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know him by sight?
A. I see him once.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. On the lake front.
Q. At a socialistic meeting there?
A. I saw him in the Central Labor Union?
Q. Do you know Fischer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you known him?
A. About two years.
Q. By sight or personally?
A. Well.
Q. Ever spoke to him?
A. Spoke to him sometimes.
Q. You have a speaking acquaintance?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where have you met him?
A. At Thalia Hall.
Q. Meetings of the Northwestern Groop?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know Parsons or Fielden?
A. By sight.
Q. Where have you seen them?
A. In socialistic meetings.
Q. At different places?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Did you ever hear them speak?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Neebe?
A. By sight.
Q. How long have you known him by sight?
A. About two years.
Q. What time did you get to the Hay Market meeting?
A. A little before nine.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Until about ten o'clock.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Went off with Schnaubelt and then went to Engel's.
Q. Then where did you go, to Engel's house?
A. To Engel's house.
Q. What time did you get to Engel's house?
A. About fifteen
minutes past ten.
Q. Are you an archist?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were arrested were you not?
A. Yes, sir, for a day.
Q. At the North Side Station, Captain Schaak's?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have a converstaion with Captain Schaak and Mr. Furthman?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After you were arrested.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was that conversation?
A. It was up in the police station.
Q. Were you shown a picture of Schnaubelt at that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The same picture you have seen to-day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I will ask you if you were not asked at that time by Captain Schaak or Mr. Furthman if you had seen that man at the Hay Market meeting, and if you didn't say that you might have seen him?
A. He didn't ask me about the Hay Market meeting at that time.
Q. What did he ask you. Did he ask you if you had ever seen this man?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was your answer "I might have seen him"?
A. I don't know.
Q. What did you answer?
A. I know I seen him. I don't know what I answered at that time.
Q. Was the conversation you had at the station in English or in German?
A It was English and German.
Q Were there other officers present at the time?
A Yes sir.
Q Other persons besides Mr. Furthman?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember the names of any of them?
A No, sir.
Q Do you remember whether Stiffert was there, an officer named Stifft?
A I don't know Stifft.
Q Or Schuttler?
A Schutler was there.
Q Was Officer Hoffman there, if you remember?
A I don't know his name.
Q I will ask you if at that time you were not asked by Furthman in German, if this man was at the Haymarket, if you had ever seen him, and if you did not answer that you might have seen him, but you didn't see him at the Haymarket?
A I told Mr. Furthman that I was not at the Haymarket--that is what I told Furthman; and Mr. Furthman told me a lie too, and I think I have the same right.
Q You told him you were not at the Haymarket?
A That is what I told him.
Q You did?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell him you were at Engel's house?
A Yes, sir.
Q What time did you tell him you got to Engel's house?
A I don't know any more.
Q Didn't you tell him you got to Engel's house at nine o'clock that night and stayed until eleven?
A It may be.
Q What do you mean when you shrug your shoulders?
Mr. FOSTER: He means he is a German.
Mr. INGHAM: Q Didn't you state at that time that you got to Engel's house at nine o'clock and stayed there until eleven o'clock?
A That might be.
Q Did you or not?
BY THE COURT: Q Do you remember whether you did or not?
A I can't remember.
Mr. INGHAM: You can't remember whether you did or not?
A No sir.