Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Direct examination by Mr. Salomon. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Attended the Haymarket meeting and stood near the speakers' wagon. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.L 552), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.L 553), place and time origination of the gunfire (vol.L 553), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.L 553), weapons in the crowd (vol.L 554), street lights and/or lights on the wagon (vol.L 556), Fielden, Samuel (vol.L 557).
Testimony of Charles Heiderkrueger, 1886 Aug. 4.
Volume L, 551-559, 8 p.
Heiderkrueger, Charles.
Machinist.
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[Image, Volume L, Page 551]
CHARLES HEIDERKRUEGER,
A WITNESS CALLED AND SWORN ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS BEING EXAMINED IN CHIEF MR. MR. SALOMON, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
Q WHAT IS YOUR NAME?
A CHARLES HEIDERKRUEGER.
Q WHERE DO YOU RESIDE?
A 50 SAMUEL STREET.
Q HOW OLD ARE YOU?
A 18 YEARS.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO?
A FOUR YEARS.
Q ARE YOU LIVING WITH YOUR PARENTS?
A YES SIR.
Q WHAT IS YOUR BUSINESS?
A I AM A NACHINIST BY TRADE AND RUN A RIP SAW.
Q WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?
A FOR NICKER & VINERT FURNITURE COMPANY.
Q ARE YOU AT PRESENT IN THEIR EMPLOY, WORKING FOR THEM NOW?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER THE NIGHT OF THE 4TH OF MAY THIS YEAR?
A YES SIR.
Q DID YOU GO ON DESPLAINES STREET WHERE THE SPEAKING TOOK PLACE ON THAT NIGHT?
A YES SIR, I HAPPENED TO GO DOWN THERE.
Q WHERE DID YOU FIRST GO WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THAT PLACE?
A I CAME OUT RANDOLPH STREET AND TO DESPLAINES AND MET A BIG CROWD THERE AND STOPPED RIGHT THERE.
Q ANYBODY SPEAKING WHEN YOU YOU GOT THERE?
A YES SIR, THERE WAS SPEAKING.
Q WHO WAS SPEAKING?
A THREE FELLOWS SPEAKING. I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WAS, THE FIRST ONE WHEN I GOT THERE, THE FIRST FELLOW WAS
SPEAKING.
Q WHERE DID YOU STAND WHEN YOU HEARD THE FIRST MAN SPEAK?
A I WAS STANDING ON THE SOUTH CORNER OF THE WAGON.
Q DID YOU REMAIN THERE ALL THE EVENING?
A BY CRUSHING, I GOT CRUSHED AROUND ON THE NORTH SIDE.
Q NORTH SIDE OF WHAT?
A NORTH SIDE OF A WAGON.
Q DID YOU STAND IN THE STREET OR SIDEWALK.
A I STOOD JUST NEAR THE SIDEWALK, NEAR THE DITCH.
Q NORTH AND WEST OF THE WAGON OR NORTH AND EAST OF THE WAGON?
A NORTH-EAST.
Q UNTIL WHAT TIME DID YOU STAND AT THAT PLACE?
A I STOOD THERE UNTIL ALL AT ONCE THE CROWD RUN BACK, AND I STOOD THERE--I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED--AS I LOOKED UP I SEEN THE OFFICERS RIGHT THERE, I JUST STOOD SOME TIME.
Q WHERE WERE THE OFFICERS WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THEM?
A JUST THERE WHERE YOU STOPPED.
Q DID YOU KNOW PREVIOUS THAT THEY WERE COMING?
A NO SIR.
Q DID YOU HEAR ANYBODY SPEAK OF THE POLICE OFFICERS COMING?
A NO SIR, I HAVE NOT HEARD ANY.
Q THE FIRST YOU KNEW OF THEIR BEING THERE OR THEIR COMING WAS WHEN YOU SAW THEM?
A WHEN I SEE THE CROWD RUN BACK AND LOOKED UP.
Q HOW NEAR TO YOU WERE THEY THEN STANDING?
A I COULDN'T JUST EXACTLY TELL YOU, BUT I WAS ABOUT EIGHT FEET FROM THE WAGON.
Q HOW FAR FROM THE FIRST OFFICERS, HOW FAR FROM YOU WERE THE NEAREST OFFICERS, ABOUT HOW MANY FEET?
A THERE WAS ABOUT 16 OR 20 FEET OFF.
Q WAS THERE ANYTHING SAID BY ANY OF THE OFFICERS TO ANYBODY, AND BY ANYBODY TO THE OFFICERS?
A NOT THAT I HEARD.
Q YOU DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING?
A NO.
Q AFTER THE OFFICERS ARRIVED THERE, WHAT TOOK PLACE, IF ANYTHING?
A THE CAPTAIN WALKED UP TO THE THREE SPEAKERS, ON THE WAGON AND HE TALKED TO THEM. I BELIEVE HE ASKED THEM WHAT THEY CALLED THEMSELVES. SO ONE OF THEM SAID IT WAS A MEETING, AND THEN HE SAID SOME WORD WHAT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND. SO THE THREE MEN GOT OFF THE WAGON WHAT I SEEN THERE, GOT OFF THE WAGON AND THEN A BIG SHOT WENT OFF. I TOOK IT FOR CANNON SHOT, AND ALL AT ONCE THEY STARTED TO SHOOT, THE OFFICERS, AND I LAID DOWN MY FACE TO THE GROUND AND LAID STILL THERE.
Q WAS THERE A CROWD OF PEOPLE AROUND YOU JUST BEFORE YOU LAID DOWN ON THE STREET?
A I WAS RIGHT IN THE FRONT LINE.
Q WAS THERE ANY PEOPLE STANDING ABOUT YOU?
A THERE WERE SOME BEHIND ME; I WAS RIGHT IN THE FRONT LINE.
Q DID ANYBODY AROUND YOU SHOOT AT THE OFFICERS?
A NOT THAT I SEEN.
Q YOU SAY THE POLICE OFFICERS BEGAN TO SUIT?
A YES SIR.
Q AT WHOM DID THEY SHOOT?
A THEY SHOT AT THE CROWD.
Q IN WHICH DIRECTION DID THEY SHOOT?
A ANY WAY AT ALL.
Q AND IN EVERY DIRECTION?
A YES SIR.
Q DID YOU HEAR ANY WORDS LIKE THESE "HERE COME THE BLOOD HOUNDS; DO YOUR DUTY AND I WILL DO MINE"?
A NO, I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING OF THAT KIND AT ALL.
Q DID YOU SEE ANYBODY AROUND THE WAGON HAVE A PISTOL OR SHOW A REVOLVER OR ANY INSTRUMENT OR ARMS OF ANY KIND?
A NO, I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT.
Q DID YOU HEAR ANYBODY AROUND THE WAGON SPEAK ABOUT ATTACKING THE POLICE OR SAY ANYTHING ABOUT OR CONCERNING THE POLICE IN ANY WAY?
A NO, I HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING OF THAT KIND AT ALL.
Q HOW DID THE PEOPLE AROUND THE WAGON BEHAVE THEMSELVES, WERE THEY QUIET?
A THEY WERE ALL QUIET THERE, AND LISTENING TO THE SPEAKERS WHAT THEY WERE TALKING.
Q YOU SAY EVERYTHING WAS QUIET?
A YES SIR.
Q THE PEOPLE WERE MERELY LISTENING TO WHAT THE PEOPLE WERE SAYING?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE ANY OF THE GENTLEMEN SITTING HERE AS BEING THE SPEAKERS?
A NOT THAT I KNOW OF. THERE WAS ONE MAN LOOKED MUCH LIKE HIM.
Q ONE MAN LOOKED A CREAT DEAL LIKE HIM?
A YES SIR, HAD A BEARD.
Q WAS HE THE FIRST OR LAST SPEAKER?
A HE WAS THE LAST SPEAKER, WITH THE BIG BEARD.
Q DO YOU THINK THAT IS THE MAN?
A I COULDN'T TELL YOU BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE HIS FACE; IT WAS DARK.
Q DID ANYBODY FIRE A SHOT FROM THE WAGON?
A NOT THAT I KNOW.
Q YOU STOOD WITHIN EIGHT FEET OF THE WAGON, EIGHT FEET FROM WHERE THE SPEAKER STOOD?
A YES SIR.
Q FACING SOUTH?
A FACING TOWARDS THE SPEAKERS.
Q FACING TOWARDS WHERE THE SPEAKERS STOOD ON THE WAGON?
A YES SIR.
Q FACING TOWARDS THE DIRECTION FROM WHICH THE POLICE CAME?
A YES SIR.
Q WHEN THE SHOOTING BEGAN BY THE POLICE YOU LAID DOWN ON YOUR FACE?
A YES, I LAID DOWN ON MY FACE UNTIL THE OFFICERS GOT SOME AHEAD OF ME, AND SOME RIGHT NEAR ME, BEHIND ME, AND THEY WERE LOADING UP THEIR REVOLVERS, AND I THOUGHT "IT IS TIME TO GET AWAY OR ELSE YOU GET SHOT", AND I GOT UP AND WENT TOWARDS THE OFFICERS, WANTED TO GO HOME--SO ONE OF THE OFFICERS HE GOT TO THE SIDEWALK AND HE SAYS, "THROW UP YOUR HANDS", AND I HELD MY HANDS UP MY HANDS LIKE THIS, HE GOT ME BY THE ARM AND HIT ME WITH HIS CLUB, AND I GOT ARRESTED AND GOT ON THE WAGON.
Q TOOK YOU TO THE STATION AND HAD YOU LOCKED UP?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HEAR WHEN THE POLICE CAME UP, ANYTHING SAID ABOUT CLOSING UP THE MEETING OR ADJOURNING TO SOME OTHER PLACE.
Q ONE OF THE SPEAKERS SAID: "WE WILL SOON BE THROUGH IN A FEW MINUTES".
Q ABOUT HOW LONG BEFORE THE POLICE CAME, WAS IT HE SAID THOSE WORDS?
A COULD NOT BE LONGER THAN FIVE OR TEN MINUTES.
Q NOT LONGER THAT TEN MINUTES---WHAT WAS IT THE SPEAKER SAID?
A HE SAID, "I BE THROUGH IN A FEW MINUTES."
Q HE WAS THEN TALKING AT THE TIME THE POLICE CAME UP, WAS HE?
A YES, HE WAS TALKING.
Q WAS THERE ANY CHANGE IN THE WEATHER DURING THE TIME YOU WERE
STANDING THERE?
A IT CAME A KIND OF A DARK CLOUD--CAME UP, THAT IS WHEN HE SAID "I WILL BE THROUGH IN A FEW MINUTES."
Q ABOUT THE TIME THE DARK CLOUD CAME UP HE TOLD THE AUDIENCE HE WOULD BE THROUGH IN A FEW MINUTES?
A YES.
Q DID ANYBODY SAY ABOUT THEIR GOING TO ANY PLACE?
A THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE HALL IN THE NEXT CORNER.
Q THEN SOMEBODY SAID ABOUT ADJOURNING TO THE HALL AT THE NEXT CORNER WHEN HE SAID HE WOULD BE THROUGH IN A FEW MINUTES?
A YES SIR.
Q AND THEN HE TALKED ABOUT 5 OR 10 MINUTES WHEN THE POLICE CAME UP?
A YES.
Q YOU DIDN'T KNOW, AS I UNDERSTAND YOU, OF THE POLICEMAN COMING HERE, UNTIL THEY WERE THERE?
A NO SIR, I DIDN'T KNOW NOTHING AT ALL UNTIL THEY STOPPED RIGHT THERE.
Q YOU DIDN'T HEAR ANYBODY SAY "THERE COME THE POLICE"?
A NO SIR, ALL I HEARD I SEEN THE CROWD RUSH BACK.
Q WHEN THE POLICE COME UP THESE PEOPLE ON THE WAGON GOT OFF?
A YES, THEY GOT OFF, HE WAS TALKING TO THEM.
Q NOW, CAN YOU TELL WHAT THE CAPTAIN SAID?
A I COULDN'T JUST TELL YOU BECAUSE I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER HE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DISPERSING IN THE NAME OF THE PEOPLE?
MR. GRINNELL: HE SAID HE DIDN'T HEAR WHAT THE RESPONSE WAS.
Q WAS THERE ANY LIGHT ON THE WAGON?
A NO, NOT ON THE WAGON.
Q WHERE WAS THE NEAREST LIGHT?
A I HAVE NOT SEEN NO LAMPPOST, BECAUSE I DIDN'T LOOK AT IT. I COULDN'T TELL YOU WHERE THE NEAREST LIGHT WAS.
Q DID ANYBODY ON THE WAGON SHOOT AT ANY TIME?
A NOT THAT I SEEN.
Q DID YOU SEE MR. FIELDEN WHEN HE GOT DOWN OFF THE WAGON ON TO THE STREET?
A I DON'T KNOW. I HAVE NOT SEEN HIM GET DOWN. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE GOT DOWN FIRST OR LAST, BUT THE THREE GOT DOWN ONE AFTER THE OTHER.
Q DID ANYBODY SHOOT WHEN THEY GOT DOWN?
A THEY ALL SHOT. I SAW THEM JUST GET DOWN, AND ALL TOGETHER THE SHOT WENT OFF.
Q HOW LONG AFTER HE GOT DOWN DID THE SHOOTING COMMENCE?
A IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN MORE THAN A MINUTE; IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A MINUTE AT ALL.
Q FROM WHICH DIRECTION DID THE SHOOTING COME?
A OUT OF THE CROWD FROM THEM OFFICERS.
Q HOW LONG AFTER THE MAN THAT COME DOWN OFF THE WAGON WITH THE FULL BEARD, WAS IT THAT YOU SAW HIM --- HOW LONG AFTER HE GOT DOWN OFF THE WAGON?
THE COURT: DID YOU SEE HIM AGAIN AFTER HE GOT OFF?
A NO SIR, I HADN'T SEEN HIM; I LAID DOWN AND HAD MY FACE TOWARDS THE GROUND, AND DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY
MR. GRINNELL.
Q DID YOU LIE DOWN BEHIND THE WAGON?
A NO SIR, I LAID DOWN IN THE STREET.
Q WERE YOU LYING DOWN WHEN YOU HEARD THAT BIG NOISE LIKE A CANNON?
A NO SIR, WAS STANDING THEN.
Q WERE YOU FACING THAT BIG NOISE?
A YES SIR.
Q WHEN YOU HEARD THAT BIG NOISE, AND WERE FACING IT, DID YOU SEE ANY EXPLOSION, ANYTHING GO INTO THE AIR?
A NO SIR, I WAS LOOKING AT THE CAPTAIN THEN.
Q DIDN'T SEE ANY?
A NO SIR.
Q DIDN'T YOU SEE ANY BLAZE OR FIRE, OR ANYTHING, WHEN THE FIRE EXPLODED?
A NO SIR, JUST HEARD A BIG SHOT.
Q AFTER THAT YOU SAW FIRING BEGIN, AND SAW IT BEGIN FROM THE POLICEMEN?
A YES SIR.
Q AND YOU LAID DOWN?
A THEN I LAID DOWN.
Q DID YOU SEE ANYBODY BEHIND YOU OR ON EIGHER SIDE OF YOU WHILE YOU WERE LYING DOWN---DID YOU SEE ANYBODY FIRE?
A I HAVE NOT LOOKED.
Q DID YOU SEE POLICEMEN FIRE WHILE YOU WERE LYING DOWN?
A NO SIR, I DID NOT SEE.
Q YOU ARE LIVING ON SAMUEL STREET?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU KNOW BREITENFELDT?
A NO.
Q HOW DID YOU COME TO GO TO THE MEETING?
A JUST HAPPENED TO GO THERE.
Q WHERE IS 50 SAMUEL STREET?
A IT IS THE CORNER OF SAMUEL.
Q WHERE IS THAT?
A THE WEST SIDE.
Q HOW FAR WEST?
A I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WEST.
Q HOW FAR WEST IS SAMUEL STREET--HOW FAR FROM THE HAYMARKET SQUARE? IT IS A MILE, 2 MILES OR 3 MILES?
A I DON'T KNOW HOW BIG A MILE IS.
Q YOU ARE A MACHINIST?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MEASURES OR DISTANCES?
A NO SIR, I KNOW THE RULE MEASURES.
Q NEAR WHAT OTHER STREET IS SAMUEL STREET?
A NEAR ASHLAND AVENUE.
Q S. W. PART OF THE CITY?
A THE WEST PART, NORTHWEST.
Q IS IT NEAR LAKE STREET OR RANDOLPH STREET OR WASHINGTON?
A NEAR ASHLAND AVENUE.
Q ASHLAND AVENUE RUNS NORTH AND SOUTH.
THE COURT: NEAR CHICAGO AVENUE.
A NEAR CHICAGO AVENUE, ABOUT TWO BLOCKS AWAY FROM CHICAGO AVENUE.
MR. GRINNELL: AND ASHLAND AVENUE?
A YES SIR.