Direct examination by Captain Black. Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Defense Exhibit 1 (vol.L 56) introduced into evidence.

Attended the Haymarket meeting and also had a conversation with Inspector Bonfield at the Desplaines Street Station while the meeting was in progress. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.L 55), Defense Exhibit 1 (vol.L 56), Greif's hall, (vol.L 57), Call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.L 64), learned about the Haymarket meeting from "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.L 55), police knowledge of anarchist activities (vol.L 60), position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.L 62), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.L 64), Spies' speech at Haymarket (vol.L 63), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.L 64), Zepf's Hall (vol.L 66), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.L 68), (vol.L 11)2, Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.L 65), (vol.L 105), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.L 109), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.L 112), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.L 68), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.L 70), trajectory of the bomb (vol.L 70), attendance of women and children at labor meetings and rallies (vol.L 80), socialists and/or socialism (vol.L 75).

BARTON SIMONSON, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. Black and testified as follows:

Q State your name?

A Barton Simonson.

Q Where do you reside?

A Lake View.

Q Cook County?

A Cook County.

Q What is your business?

A I am travelling salesman.

Q How long have you been in business in Cook County?

A I have travelled for seven years, since I was twenty.

Q Where were you born?

A In Chicago.

Q State whether or not Cook County has always been your home?

A Yes sir.

Q For whom have you been employed during the last seven years at different times?

A I have been employed to travel for several different firms.

Q State the firms briefly?

A I have been with O. R. Keith & Co.---shall I state them.

Q State them in order and about how long you were with the respective firms?

A With John M. Graves & Co. about two and a half years---I can't be precise--just as my memory recalls it. With O. R. Keith & Co. about a year. We make yearly contracts. With Jacob Meyer & Bros. about two years. With John V. Farwell & Co.---I engaged the first of January but I got sick in April and didn't work

for the rest of last year--- was out in the country.

Q That is 1885?

A That is 1885.

MR. BLACK: Q You are now traveling for whom?

A E. Rotchschild & Bros., wholesale clothing.

Q Under contract with them since what time?

A The first of January for a year.

Q Were you in the city of Chicago on the evening of May 4th, 1886?

A Yes sir.

Q Where?

A I was at the store at 203 and 205 Monroe street until about 5;30 I should judge.

Q After that, where did you go?

A When a man is traveling----

Q (Interrupting) Where did you go that night?

A I went home and took supper at my mother's.

Q Where does your mother reside?

A 50 West Ohio street, where I was born.

Q Has your mother lived at that number since your birth?

A Yes sir, with slight or short periods when my brother removed a little out in the country ---mother owns property there.

Q You took dinner with your mother then that night I understand?

A Supper.

Q After supper where did you go?

A I went to the haymarket meeting.

Q How did you come to go to the haymarket meeting, that is, what occurred that led you to go there?

A I had been to mother's for dinner as is my custom when I am home, and in going from mother's to the store in the afternoon at half past one probably, I saw a crowd in front of a saloon on, I believe, West Lake street, near the bridge. I stepped in to see what was the matter. I saw a man distributing some circulars, and I asked him for one and he gave me one.

Q Will you look at the circular which I now hand you and which is marked "Defendants' Exhibit I, July 28, 1886, J. M. P.", and state whether or not you have ever seen that circular or one like it before (showing witness circular headed "Attention Workingmen")?

A To the best of my recollection and I think I am positive, this is the circular.

Q The circular you have just referred to that you saw on West Lake street?

A Yes sir.

Q With a view to asking you another question I will ask you to look at another circular, the same as the one just shown you, with the exception of the concluding line of the matter in both German and English preceding the signature, "The Executive Committee." I will ask you whether or not the circular which you saw on West Lake street had that line in English "Workingmen arm yourselves and come in full force", and the same in German?

A It did not.

MR. BLACK: We now offer this circular. It has already been identified as an exhibit in connection with the testimony I believe by the State. The English part I can read. It is as follows:

Attention Workingmen. Great mass meeting tonight at 7.30 o'clock at the haymarket, Randolph street, between Desplaines and Halstead. Good speakers will be present to denounce the latest atrocious act of the police, the shooting of your fellow workmen yesterday afternoon. The Executive Committee.

(Same marked defendants Ex. 1 contained in Vol. of Exhibits hereto attached.)

We will offer later a translation of the German of the circular.

Q You were desiring to make some suggestion in connection with that circular---I will ask you what it was?

A I was going to say in case it said "Workingmen arm yourselves" or "come armed" or whatever it is, I would have noticed that undoubtedly. I can't remember that. I meant to make my answer that way.

Q At what hour in the afternoon was it after dinner that you obtained this circular in the manner you have described?

A I should judge about 1.30.

Q That was as you were on your way from your mother's

where you had dined, back to the store?

A Yes sir.

Q At what hour in the evening did you reach the haymarket?

A About 7.30 I should judge.

Q Can you tell me, before we pass to that, at what saloon, or what number it was that you got this circular?

A I don't know. It was a few doors on the north side of Lake east of Jefferson.

Q A few doors east of Jefferson on the north side of Lake, a building fronting south?

A Yes sir, a brick building.

Q By way of refreshing your recollection, I will ask you whether you remember it is what is known as Greiff's saloon?

A I don't remember any name.

Q How much of a crowd was there at the time these circulars were being distributed, and when you obtained one?

A I don't know. I just stepped in the door way of the saloon and the saloon seemed to be pretty well filled.

Q Now Mr. Simonson, returning to the other question, tell me again about what hour it was you reached the locality of the haymarket?

A I should judge about 7.30.

Q Was that east of Jefferson or east of Clinton?

A It is east of the street that Blatchford's shot tower is on. I think that is Jefferson---maybe it is Clinton.

Q I believe the shot tower is on Clinton as a matter of fact. Did you find any meeting there at the time you

reached there---7.30?

A No sir.

Q What did you do there after?

A I walked around possibly two or three times around among the crowd.

Q How much of a crowd was there upon Randolph street, between Desplaines and Halstead in the locality known as the haymarket?

A I don't think I am competent to judge, because they were so scattered, and I am not in the habit of attending meetings very often.

Q But the crowd was one that was scattered and distributed through that space?

A Yes sir.

Q Without coming to a head at any particular place?

A They were a little thicker together near Desplaines street than any other place.

Q After walking about through the haymarket, that is through the place so called, what did you do?

A I went to the Desplaines street station.

Q Did you see anybody there that you knew?

A Yes sir.

Q Who?

A I shook hands with Capt. Ward.

Q Were you introduced to any other members of the police force by Captain Ward?

A Yes sir.

Q To whom?

A To Mr. Bonfield.

Q That is, Inspector Bonfield or Capt. Bonfield?

A Yes sir, Inspector Bonfield.

Q Did you have any conversation with those gentlemen or either of them?

A Yes sir.

Q After the conversations with those gentlemen, where did you go?

A I went back to see if any meeting had started.

Q Did you meet any person whom you knew on the way back?

A I met Mayor Harrison.

Q Where did you meet Mr. Harrison?

A Standing in front of the station, I saw him pass with his son I presume up into the station. I followed him up, and I waited some time until he came out. I followed him up to the meeting. I watched him for a short time while he was at the meeting. He went back to the station and I followed him, and when he got about to the alley north of the station I went up and introduced myself to him.

Q During that time had the speaking commenced, the time you have just now gone over?

A On that I am not positive.

Q I suppose you had a talk with Mr. Harrison?

A Yes sir.

Q After that where did you go?

A I went up into the station.

Q Who did you meet in the station that you now recall?

A I had met Mr. Bonfield before that or Mr. Ward. I didn't speak to anybody at that time in the station.

Q From the station upon that occasion where did you go?

A I went to hear the speaking.

Q What did you observe at the station as to the presence of any considerable number of policemen at the hour that you first went there and upon your second visit?

A I saw some, how many police, I don't now distinctly remember, when I first got there. While I was there talking to Mr. Bonfield, Inspector Bonfield---

MR. GRINNELL: (Interrupting) Don't state any conversations.

THE WITNESS (Continuing) No sir, a great body of police marched in I think in double file and passed Mr. Bonfield as I was standing by his side, and went in an inner room of the office.

Q That was during your first interview with Bonfield was it?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, on your return to the station, of which you have spoken, did you observe the policemen there whom you had seen when you came there before or any of them?

A I noticed occasionally as the door was opened that they were in there and heard them talk.

Q Now from the station upon the occasion of your seond visit to it, where did you go?

A I went up around the crowd, circled possibly two times around. Then I concluded that the best place---

MR. GRINNELL: (Interrupting) No matter what you concluded.

THE COURT: Where did you go?

THE WITNESS: I went upon the iron stairway upon the north-west corner of Randolph and Desplaines.

MR. ZEISLER: South-west, you mean?

MR. GRINNELL: He is testifying, isn't he?

THE WITNESS: If I can see that map I can tell.

MR. BLACK: This plat is already in evidence, and I will simply point the locality. This white tract running to the left is haymarket I suppose?

A Yes.

This running through the center is Desplaines street. That is the north west corner and here is the north east corner and this is what is known as the Crane Manufacturing building fronting out on Desplaines and running through to Jefferson?

A Yes sir.

Q It is in evidence already that upon this big brick building on the outside, starting flush with the south front of the building, there is an iron stairway which leads up to a platform flush or about flush with the second floor.

MR. GRINNELL: It is only proper that he should explain the location himself and not have you instruct him as to where the stairways are and everything of that character.

MR. BLACK: The witness had already spoken of an iron stairway on the south-west corner.

THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon.

THE COURT: Where were you?

A I was half way on an iron stairway across the street from Crane Bros. building on the north-west corner, half way up, of Randolph and Desplaines.

MR. BLACK: Q How long did you remain there after taking your position on the stairs?

A I remained throughout the whole meeting.

Q Were you there in that location when the bomb exploded?

A I was.

Q From where you stood, what was the direction of the meeting, or the speakers?

A The speakers were north-east from me.

Q With reference to Crane Bros' building where were they?

A They were in front of Crane Bros. building, a few feet I should judge north of the alley.

Q You observed that alley that night, did you?

A I did.

Q Its location specially?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you observe whether or not there was any street lamp at the corner of the alley and Desplaines?

A I don't remember.

Q Did you leave the position that you had there on that iron stairway during the meeting until after the explosion of the bomb?

A No sir.

Q Now, will you please in your own way go on and tell us what you observed and what you heard while you were on the stairs, just tell the whole story of the haymarket meeting

from the time you got onto the stairs?

A I heard the speeches and I heard the bomb go off and then I ran.

Q Tell what part of the speeches you heard, who spoke and what they said if you remember?

A I heard a part of Mr. Spies' speech before I went up on the iron stairway. Whether he was speaking when I first went up I don't distinctly remember, but I heeard I think all of Mr. Parson's speech, and all of Mr. Fielden's speech.

Q Can you tell us in your own way what you heard Spies say that night, whether you were on the iron stairway or whether you were down in the street, or wherever you were?

A I was down on the street when the meeting was called to order, and to the best of my recollection---I wont just say the words, but it was to this effect.

MR. GRINNELL: Don't state the effect. State the substance.

THE WITNESS: I am speaking as near as I can the words. He said "Please come to order. This meeting is not called to incite any riot," or something--it meant that, whether every one of those words were used or not---that was the substance.

Q You may go on and state anything that you remember as said by Spies that night after the introduction?

A He went on---I don't have to quote the words, do I? Because I can't.

Q Give the substance as nearly as you can remember. If

you remember any words, give them. Have you ever been accustomed to reporting speeches at all in any way?

A I never have.

Q Then you may go ahead and give as nearly as you can the substance of what you heard?

A He said something about McCormick's; that McCormick or somebody had charged him with the murder I think of the people there at the meeting the night before I believe, referring to that. He said that Mr. McCormick was a liar, he said McCormick was responsible. That is as far as I can tell. He said that somebody opposed his speaking because he was a socialist. He said the people he spoke to were good Christian church going people there the night before. He said that while he was speaking, McCormick's people came out I believe. He said some of the men and boys started for them and had some harmless sport throwing stones through the windows, etc. Then he said that some working men were shot at and killed by the police. That is so far as my memory goes. There were other things I heard that if I should repeat I would not know positively- that is a few Expressions that I don't know whether Parsons or Mr. Spies made.

Q Before we come to this will you now take up Parson's speech and tell us what you remember of his speech in substance?

A He went on to illustrate that the capitalists got the great bulk of the profit out of everything done, and the workingmen got nothing absolutely. I remember in his speech he said "To arms, to arms, to arms", but in what

connection I can't remember. I am just giving now as it comes to my mind---I don't know as I get it. I remember somebody saying "Hang McCormick" from the crowd or "Shoot him". And he says, no, -no, I made a mistake. They said: "Shoot" or "hang Gould"--- that was it, and he says "No, there will be --whether he said a hundred I don't know--- there will be a great many will jump up and take his place. What socialism aims at is not the death of individuals, but it is a change in the system.

Q If there is nothing further of Parsons remarks that you can distinctly recall, or the substance of them, can you tell us what you heard Fielden say up to the time of the explosion of the bomb?

A He spoke very loud.

Q Fielden?

A Yes sir; and as I had never attended a socialistic meeting before in my life, I thought they were all a little wild.

Q You don't know what you would have thought of it if you had been in the habit of attending such meetings?

MR. GRINNELL: State what you heard, not what you thought.

THE COURT: Q What did Fielden say?

A He spoke about a man I think in Ohio, a congressman who had been elected by the workingmen, and who confessed that no legislation could be put through in favor of the workingmen; consequently he said that there was no use trying to do anything by legislation. The people ought not to elect that man. Then

after he had talked a while a dark cold cloud, wind rather, a cloud with cold wind came from the north. Many people had been leaving before, but when that cloud came up while Mr. Fielden was speaking, a great many people left. Somebody in the audience said "Let's adjourn" to some place--- I don't know where.

Q Do you remember whether it was Zepf's hall?

A I can't distinctly remember. It was to adjourn to some hall-- I can't remember the name. Mr. Fielden said that he was about through and to the effect that there was no use adjourning, because he was about through. In talking he came and said "Now, in conclusion" or something like that, maybe two or three times. At any rate, I was impatient.

MR. INGHAM: Never mind that. Only state what you heard and saw.

THE WITNESS: He was about through and said so decidedly, and I expected he would have been through before he was.

MR. INGHAM: Never mind what you expected. Tell what you heard and what you saw and nothing else.

MR. BLACK: I think I will suggest gentlemen that if you want to instruct the witness you had better do it through the court. It is very embarrassing sometimes to a witness to have three or four counsel instructing him.

MR. GRINNELL: Such a suggestion coming from you is refreshing I must say.

MR. BLACK: I am going to refresh you a good deal before I get through.

THE COURT: Repeat what you heard him say if you can, tell what you remember to have heard him say?

THE WITNESS: Just now I cannot recollect more than I have stated.

MR. BLACK: Q Now, did you see the approach of the police to the meeting?

A I heard a commotion, and a good deal of noise, in the audience, and heard somebody say "Police". I looked south and saw a line about I should judge when it was at the Randolph street car tracks.

Q Did you continue to observe that line or otherwise?

A Yes sir.

Q What was that line composed of?

A Policemen.

Q What were its movements, and where if at all did it stop?

A It moved along until the front of the column got about up to the speaker's wagon I should judge.

Q Did you hear any command given to the force when the head of the column reached the point designated?

A I heard somebody say something about dispersing---I presume it was an order of that kind.

Q What was the location from which the sound in reference to dispersing came?

A From near the wagon.

Q Did you at that time observe the persons upon the wagon?

A I saw there were persons upon the wagon. I could not tell who they were.

Q Do you know whether or not at that time Fielden was still on the wagon?

A I don't know.

Q Did you hear any response from the wagon or locality of the wagon to the suggestion that you heard in reference to dispersing?

A About the time that the police got up to the wagon to my best judgment the time that somebody was giving the command to disperse, I distinctly heard two words--- I don't know who uttered them. The words were "Peaceable meeting."

Q Where did those words come from apparently?

A They seemed to come from the vicinity or in the wagon.

Q How long was that before the explosion of the bomb?

A A few seconds.

Q Did you observe how many divisions of the police there were on command there?

A I didn't.

Q Did you observe that there were more than the front division?

A I didn't look at the police particularly. My mind is not clear as to it.

Q You say you observed or heard a motion among the crowd. What did you observe as to the motion of the audience, as to what they did when the police marhced forward?

A As the police marched through the crowd, they went to either side, and some few went on Randolph street east, and some west, and some north, and some moved, a side to the sidewalk.

Q Of Desplaines street?

A Yes sir.

Q That was after the police had come across Randolph street and entered Desplaines street?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you hear that night from the locality of the wagon, or from Mr. Fielden, spoken in any loud tone of voice, any such exclamation as "Here come the bloodhounds of the police. You do your duty and I will do mine" or "Men, you do your duty and I'll do mine"?

A No sir.

Q You heard nothing of that sort that night?

A I did not.

Q At the time the bomb exploded you were still in your position upon the stairs, were you?

A I was.

Q Did anybody speak to you that night while you were on the stairs?

A A reporter.

Q Did you know for what paper, or did he state for what paper?

A I didn't at that time, although from his testimony since, I think I know who he is.

Q After speaking to you where did that reporter who spoke to you go---did he go up the stairs or down?

A I don't remember right then, but he went down, and just before the police came he run up past me again I think-- my impression is somebody run up past me just as the police come.

Q Run up towards the top of the stairs?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember the appearance of the gentlemen who thus passed you as to his build?

A I just remember that he was a tall, smooth faced young man, and I could tell him I should judge by seeing him. I haven't tried to find him.

Q Was there any pistol shot anywhere in that audience before the explosion of the bomb?

A There was not.

Q Was any pistol fired by any person upon the wagon before the bomb explosed?

A There was not.

Q Did you see the bomb thrown?

A I did.

Q Will you state to us just what you saw as to the throwing of the bomb, where it was thrown from and its direction?

A Just after the command to disperse had been given, about when the speaking had stopped, I saw a lighted fuse, or something----I didn't know what it was at the time---it come up from very nearly twenty feet south of the alley. I am positive where it came up because I was looking that way.

Q Where was it with reference to the sidewalk upon the opposite side of the street? Was it from the locality of the sidewalk?

A I should judge it was from the center of the sidewalk on the east side of the street, about twenty feet south of the alley, I should judge, behind some boxes.

Q Twenty feet south of the south line of Cranes alley?

A The south line of Crane's alley.

Q You had observed then I understand from your last

answer some boxes on the sidewalk near the alley south of the alley, across the way from you?

A Yes sir.

Q And it was from the locality of those boxes that the bomb was thrown?

A Yes sir.

Q South of them or north of them if you remember?

A I don't remember. My judgment was at the time it was behind the boxes east of them.

Q You say as much as twenty feet south of the alley?

A I am positive.

Q Your recollection would be then it was not thrown from the alley or the mouth of the alley?

A I am positive it was not thrown from the alley.

Q What did you observe further as to the progress of the bomb, and as to how high it went into the air?

A I first noticed it probably six or seven feet in the air, a little above a man's head. It was as if it had been tossed this way (indicating). I should judge may be it went up fifteen feet from the ground. It went in a north-west course.

Q Proceeding a little towards the north and toward the west?

A Yes sir.

Q And fell where?

A I thought about the middle of the street.

Q How soon after you saw this fuse passing through the air and falling in the location you have indicated, did the explosion come?

A Almost immediately, possibly two or

three seconds.

Q Up to that time I understand you there had been no pistol shot from the wagon or anywhere?

A There had not.

Q When the bomb explosed, what was the result as to a cloud of smoke, or anything of that kind proceeding from it?

A There was something of that kind.

Q After the bomb exploded, what occurred- -I will ask you specially with reference to pistol shooting, whether there was any?

A Yes sir.

Q State whether or not from your position you could see the flashings of the pistols that were fired?

A I could, very distinctly.

Q In this position from which you were observing, how high was your head above the heads of the audience, or say, above the street?

A Fifteen feet, something like that above the ground.

Q Was there anything that obstructed in any way your view of that entire territory?

A There was not.

Q How many pistol shots, or about how many did you hear after the explosion of the bomb?

A I don't know. There might have been 50 and might have been 150.

Q Where did the pistol shots proceed from?

A From about the center of where the police were.

Q Did you observe any pistol shots, either of the flashes of them or hear the report of them from the crowd

upon the police prior to the firing by the police?

A I did not.

Q After the pistol shooting opened, where did you go?

A Well, just as the bomb went off and the firing commenced a sudden thought seized me that I was safer----

MR. GRINNELL: (Interrupting) What did you do, never mind what you thought?

A I stayed there possibly five, ten, fifteen or twenty seconds---I don't know. It seemed to me a long time.

MR. BLACK: Q Right where you were?

A Yes sir.

Q Then what did you do?

A I then concluded that I was just as safe to run as it was to stand there, because shooting was going on in every direction. They were shooting up as well as down.

Q Who were shooting up?

A The police.

Q You could see that from the location of the shots and the flashes of the pistols?

A I could. I don't say they were shooting towards me, but they were not only shooting in the crowd, but I noticed several of them this way (illustrating) shoot just as they happened to throw their arms; and I thought my position there was possibly more dangerous than it would be down in the crowd, and then I ran down after coming to that conclusion.

Q You ran down to the foot of the stairs?

A I did.

Q Where did you then go?

A I got in just about the rear of the crowd that was running west on Randolph street.

I ran west on the sidewalk a short distance, and then in the road.

Q What occurred while you were thus running west?

A A man was laying down in front of me, as I kept running I jumped over him, and as I jumped into the street a man fell in front of me as I was running. I just took hold of his arm, and the thought occurred to me as to help him, but the firing was so lively behind me that I just let go and run.

Q While you were thus running west I understand on Randolph street, towards Halsted, what was your position with reference to the crowd in Randolph street that was running with you ---were you at the head or at the rear of it?

A I was in the rear of the crowd running, possibly the last man.

Q The police still behind you?

A Yes sir.

Q While you were in Randolph street were there any shots at all fired from the crowd in front of you back towards the east, or were the pistol shots all toward the west?

A There were no shots to the direction I was running, or I could have seen them.

Q None from the direction to which you were running?

A No sir.

Q The shots were from behind you then?

A Yes sir.

Q What place was it that this party you started to help fell? How far from Desplaines street on Randolph?

A I

don't know---possibly 150 or 200 feet.

Q You had run some little distance?

A Yes sir.

Q Before that incident occurred?

A Yes sir.

Q You saw nothing further after that that night?

A I didn't.

Q I understand this is the first socialistic meeting you attended in your life?

A The first socialistic meeting I attended in my life.

Q Had you ever before that attended any workingmen's meeting?

A Not that I know of. I never attended any meeting that I knew was such.

Q You are not then a member of any socialistic party or association?

A I am not.

Q Never have been?

A Never have been.

Q Referring now for a moment back to the matter of speaking---do you remember whether the eight hour movement or agitation was referred to by any of the speakers?

A I have a sort of indistinct recollection of something of that kind was mentioned---what was said I don't remember.

Q I understand you Fielden said "In conclusion" or that in substance two or three times before the bomb exploded?

A Before the police come.

Q From the time he first announced in that manner his expectation of an early close of his address until the arrival of the police, how many minutes was it?

A I can only guess from what -- it might have been four or five minutes--

I don't think it was to exceed ten.

Q You put it somewheres from ten to four minutes?

A That is my judgment.

Q Long enough I understand for you to grow impatient for the conclusion that had been promised?

A That was the way I felt.

Q During the course of the meeting did you observe the deportment and dress of the audience or any considerable portion of it?

A Yes sir.

Q What is your recollection as to the attire of the audience and as to their conduct?

A I would amend my answer in regard to that---I had mingled with the people before the meeting and I think I noticed particularly, tried to notice the kind of people that were there because I was curious to know what kind of people would go to that meeting---

Q Go on?

A I noticed I thought at that time the meeting was composed of ordinary workingmen, mechanics etc.

Q You judged that from their dress and appearance?

A That is the majority. In all crowds they vary of course.

Q Did you observe whether any considerable number of those that were there spoke the English language?

A That I don't know anything about.

Q Now, what was their conduct during the meeting---what did they do?

A You mean the audience

Q The audience?

A They listened and they yelled once in a while and they said: "Shoot him" and "Hang him" once in a while. The violent ones seemed to be in the vicinity and surrounding the wagon and speakers.

Q What did you notice as to the outskirts of the audience --did you hear anything in the way of laughter and joking? remarks or anything of that kind?

A I can't say distinctly my memory serves me---it seemed to impress me with the fact that there was some making fun of the meeting ---I hardly knew how to take it, whether it was in sympathy with the meeting or against it.

Q A considerable portion of the audience had dispersed I understand before the police reached the scene of action?

A Yes sir.

Q How many do you think or what proportion of the audience left upon the suggestion to adjourn to some hall of which you have spoken?

A From the time that the meeting first opened to the time it closed I should judge that it had thinned out about half.

Q You are not accustomed to estimating crowd?

A No sir.

Q And therefore can give no information as to how many were there?

A Nothing that would be reliable.

Q Did you notice any demonistration of violence on the

crowd, any fighting or anything of that kind?

A I didn't.

Q About what proportion of the audience if you can form an estimate, responded in the manner you have indicated to the sentiments or utterances of the speakers? or commented as the speakers went on?

A Do you want my opinion?

Q Yes, your idea as to what proportion was it, half, a quarter or two thirds or what?

A I can only give an indefinite opinion of my own---something like a third.

Q How often did you hear during the course of the entire evening, did you hear any such expression as "hang him" or "shoot him" from the audience?

A How many times?

Q Yes sir.

A It might have been half a dozen or might have been a few more.

Q You remember if I get your testimony right that such exclamations occurred on the mention of the name of McCormick, and also on the mention of Jay Gould's name. McCormick by Spies and Jay Gould by Parsons?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember any other names mentioned by the speakers which elicited such an outcry by the audience or any portion of them?

A I don't now remember.

Q As to the manner and bearing of the crowd, how were they? while Fielden was speaking as compared to the time of Parsons speech? Were they more violent and noisy or less so?

A I thought they were a little wild all the time.

Q Were they more so while Parsons was speaking or while Fielden was speaking as you remember?

A It didn't impress me at that time as being any different.

Q There was no difference that you observed at the time?

A No sir.

Q Substantially the same deportment through the entire meeting?

A Yes sir.

Q You had a conversation I understand you that evening with Capt. Bonfield?

A Yes sir.

Q Did that conversation refer in any manner---I don't ask you what was said now, but did it refer to the proposed meeting?

THE COURT: How is that admissible?

MR. BLACK: As part of the res gestae. I think we are entitled to all that occurred there on both sides, not only on the part of the people but on the side of the police. There was a meeting of the police at Desplaines street. There was a meeting of the people at Desplaines street and they were a little distance apart, and they had an intimate relationship. I will offer to prove by this witness that in a conversation had by him with Inspector Bonfield on that occasion, he referred to the proposed meeting and in the course of a conversation, Inspector Bonfield used words like these: "That one trouble with these meetings was they always had their women and children present.

THE COURT: I suppose he has a right to state what he proposes to prove.

MR. BLACK: I want the record to show what I propose to prove by this witness. He said that the trouble was that the socialists or these people always had their women and children at their meetings; that he would like to get about three thousand of them together when their women and children were not there, and that he would use them up, or words to that effect.

MR. GRINNELL: I withdraw the objection.

MR. BLACK: Q Now, will you state what occurred in the conversation with Capt. Bonfield on that subject?

A In reference to what you ask, I asked Mr. Bonfield about the trouble in the southwestern part of the city. He says: "The trouble there is that these---whether he used the word socialists or strikers I don't know which---"Get their women and children mixed up with them and around them and in front of them, and we can't get at them."

MR. INGHAM: Q Was that conversation in regard to this haymarket matter?

MR. BLACK: It is a conversation he had with Bonfield at the station.

THE WITNESS: Yes sir. Then he said I would like to get three thousand of them in a crowd without their women and children.

MR. BLACK: Q Did he say anything else as indicating why he wanted to get them so?

THE COURT: If he said anything, you may state it. Is that all he said?

THE WITNESS: Can I state what I would not make positive--what my impression is he said?

THE COURT: State your best recollection of what he said.

A After he said that he would like to have and get a crowd of three thousand of them without their women and children, then to the best of my recollection he said: "And I will make short work of them," or something to that effect. That is the way it impressed me at the time.

Q Were there any women or childrem at the haymarket meeting so called that you observed?

A There may have been a few in the outskirts. I noticed a few at the bottom of the step where I was.

Q In the body of the men around the wagon, how was it?

A I don't think there was any.

Q At the time the police came up there, you didn't observe any, did you?

A No sir.

Q What did you say your business is?

A Traveleing salesman.

Q In what line?

A Wholesale clothing.

Q Who are you traveling for now?

A E. Rotchschild & Bros.

Q How long have you been traveling for them?

A Since the first of January.

Q Before that for whom?

A John V. Farwell & Co.

Q Who before that?

A With Jacob Meyer & Bro.

Q Have you any business than that of traveling salesman?

A Never had, except before I commenced this business.

Q What business were you in?

A Working in wholesale dry goods houses in stock.

Q Are you in the habit of visiting the police stations in the city and have you been in the past?

A I have a few times.

Q For what purpose?

A Well, do you want me to go into details here.

Q Generally for what purpose are you in the habit of visiting the police stations?

A I will have to explain this. I attended the Salvation Army meeting on East Chicago Ave. and I thought in fact the roughs there interrupted the meeting. I went across to see Mr. Schaack about it.

Q How many times?

A Possibly two or three times.

Q Have you been in the habit of visting other police stations?

A I think I have been two times at the Desplaines street station.

Q For what purpose?

A Once I made a complaint against a policeman for abusing an old man.

Q What were you there for the other time?

A I went there once. I brought a fellow who asked me for something to get him a lodging on the west side one evening, and brought him there and asked them to take care of him.

Q Have you been there at other times than that?

A Yes, I went there once. I had heard somebody who had been lodging at the station house telling about something about the way they were treated in the station, and I went there, and Mr. Ward told me a different story, that they gave them something to eat etc.

Q You went there to investigate a complaint against the police of some one who had been locked up?

A No sir, I went out of curiosity, to satisfy myself if that was the fact.

Q How could you satisfy yourself without investigating?

A I asked Mr. Ward.

Q You were to investigate?

A Not for anybody else.

Q Have you been there at other times?

A At that conversation.

Q Have you been at the police station at other times?

A Not that I know of.

Q Have you visited any other police stations at any other times than this?

A Not that I know of.

Q Had you any acquaintance with Inspector Bonfield?

A Never.

Q Ever meet him before that night?

A Not that I know of.

Q Did you ever meet Ward except on that one occasion?

A Except on the occasion referred to just now.

Q That is the only time you ever met him? Were you ever in the Desplaines street station any but those two occasions

A Not that I remember.

Q You say your attention was first called to this meeting by a circular which has been shown you?

A Yes sir.

Q What was your object in going to that meeting?

A I had just come in from a trip and I had heard a good deal about the labor troubles. I was curious to know what kind of meetings they held, believing that the newspapers ordinarily misrepresented such things.

Q You thought the newspapers misrepresented the meetings against the workingmen?

A That has been my general opinion.

Q Have you ever attended any socialistic meetings?

A I never had in my life.

Q So one of your objects was to see a socialistic meeting?

A It was.

Q You went to the haymarket for the purpose of seeing a genuine live socialistic meeting?

A I went over to see what kind of a meeting it was. It was not definite in my mind at that time just what the character of the meeting was.

Q Where was it you saw the circular?

A On West Lake street.

Q Where abouts on West Lake street?

A It was on Lake right a few doors east of the street the shot tower is on.

Q Where abouts around that building did you see the circular?

A Right by the door, in the door.

Q Inside?

A I think I was just on the foothold of the door.

Q How did you happen to go into that room?

A I saw a crowd at the inside.

Q Do you go in whenever you see a crowd?

A I am somewhat curious, and used to do something of that kind.

Q Whenever you see a crowd in a building, you are in the habit of going in?

A Not always.

Q The reason you went in was simply because you saw the crowd there?

A At that time, yes sir.

Q How large a crowd did you see at that place---do you know the name of the place?

A No sir.

Q Do you know it now?

A No sir.

Q Don't you know it is Greiff's hall?

A I don't know.

Q Hasn't anybody told you?

A I don't know whether they have or not.

Q In the consultation you had with counsel for the defense about your testimony, was it suggested that it was Greiff's hall?

A I have not talked with counsel.

Q Did you talk with any of them?

A I have talked with Mr. Black.

Q How often with Mr. Black?

A Two or three times.

Q Has he suggested to you that that was Greiff's hall?

A If he has I don't recollect it.

Q You read the circular particularly?

A I read it. There wasn't much to read particularly.

Q You read it particularly?

A I read it.

Q Did you read it and give particular attention to it?

A Not more than I would read anything.

Q You read it ordinarily then as you would read any ordinary circular?

A That is it.

Q You say that if the words "Workingmen appear in full force and armed" was in that circular, you would have been certain to have noticed it?

A If those words "Workingmen appear in full force and armed" had been on I certainly would have noticed that, yes sir, because that was something extraordinary.

Q That was something extraordinary?

A Yes sir.

Q Was the fact that this meeting was called to denounce the late atrocious act of the police anything extraordinary?

A It struck me rather forcibly.

Q Had you learned anything about the police having abused

anybody at McCormick's before that?

A I did not.

Q That struck you as forcible. Did you go there for the purpose of hearing the denounciation?

A I went to see what kind of a meeting it was.

Q Did you go for the purpose of hearing the denounciation?

A I went to see what kind of a meeting there was.

Q Did you go for the purpose of hearing the denounciation of the police?

A I went to hear the meeting.

Q Can you answer that question yes or no?

A Well, I didn't know what I was going to hear.

Q Did you go for the purpose of hearing a denounciation of the police?

A I did not for that purpose.

Q What purpose did you go for?

A Curiosity.

Q Curiosity merely?

A Yes sir.

Q What was your curiosity to see?

A It was to hear the character of the speeches that they actually made, as I was of the impression that ordinarily---I did not know from practical experience just what took place in those places. I had read a good deal.

Q You had no impression---you knew that you didn't know what took place, didn't you at that sort of meeting---you never attended any before?

A No sir.

Q You didn't have any impression in regard to that?

A As to what took place?

Q Yes sir?

A I had a general idea. I didn't know how violent the speeches would be.

Q How did you know the speeches would be violent at all?

A I presumed they would from what I read in the papers of previous meetings.

Q You have state that you supposed that the papers misrepresented these meetings?

A I say I suppose.

Q What made you suppose that?

A I presume there was more or less truth in what the papers said--possibly all the truth, but my impression, my idea was that possibly it was not always given as it occurred.

Q What gave you that impression?

A I don't know.

Q How long have you known Capt. Black?

A I knew him I should judge a couple of weeks after this occurred.

Q Did not you know him before that?

A Never seen the gentleman before.

Q What gave you the impression the newspapers misrepresented things?

A It may have been in my blood---I don't know.

Q What is there in your blood that could give you an impression of the truth or falsity of the newspaper statement in regard to the meetings of workingmen?

A I simply surmise that from this fact, that I had not anything definite, but I had seen reports in papers of what I had seen which occurred, and as a rule they were onesided.

Q So you took it for granted that if the newspapers wre one sided, they would always be onesided against the workingmen, in their meetings?

A I presumed so at that

time.

Q Had you ever read reports of socialisit meetings?

A I have.

Q Did you have any desire to see whether the socialists were mispepresented in the papers or not?

A I always had a feeling that I wanted to hear sometime, when I had the time.

Q That is not the question. Did you have any impression in your mind or in your blood as to whether the newspapers misrepresented socialistic meetings?

A Did I have any impression?

Q Yes sir?

A I had an impression, I told you so.

Q That the papers had misrepresented socialistic meetings?

A Yes sir.

Q Was it in regard to that impression, to prove or disprove that impression that you went to this meeting partially?

A To satisfy myself, yes sir.

Q As to whether the papers represented or misrepresented socialistic meetings?

A I stated that as one of the reasons.

Q That was one of the reasons?

A Yes sir.

Q What did you know of the character of that meeting before you went there?

A I didn't know a thing.

Q Except what you saw in that circular?

A Except what I saw.

Q What time did you get there?

A I should judge about half past seven.

Q Are you acquainted with Grinnell?

A I have met the gentleman.

Q Where did you meet him?

A I met him in his office when he was City Attorney.

Q How long ago was that?

A Over a year and a half.

Q Eever meet him since that?

A Never, not that I know of.

Q What time did you get to that meeting?

A I should judge 7.30.

Q Where did you go when you first got there?

A I walked around among the people.

Q On what street?

A On Randolph street.

Q How long were you walking around on Randolph street?

A When I state-time ---I don't want to state any thing definite.

Q Not to the second or minute, but about how long?

A May be half an hour, may be three quarters.

Q You were simply walking around among the people?

A That is about all.

Q How many peole did you notice on Randolph street?

A I don't know.

Q About how many people?

A I am not competent to judge.

Q Did you see them gathered in groups of people?

A Where a few friends were together, and knew each other, I saw little groups talking.

Q About how large were those groups?

A I can't remember.

Q You saw where a few friends were together?

A I presume they were friends, because they were talking. I should not go in among people talking anywheres if I presumed they were friends.

Q Simply you saw people standing in groups and talking together?

A Yes sir.

Q How large were any of those groups?

A I don't know.

Q How thickly were they scattered about on the haymarket?

A In some places near Desplaines it was crowded thick- -you could not very well mass on the sidewalk. Some places towards Union street they were thinner --not so many.

Q How was it on the south side of the haymarket?

A I guess I was not there as much as on the south side.

Q You spent up an hour walking up and down on the haymarket?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you meet anybody there that you knew?

A No sir.

Q Did you ask anybody as to whether there would be a meeting that night or not?

A No sir.

Q Did not see any meeting up to that time?

A No sir.

Q Nor any signs of one?

A No sir.

Q You simply saw groups of people scattered along the haymarket?

A Yes sir.

Q Was people scattered along there any thicker than ordinarily on Clark street that night?

A Yes, I think so. They were standing there. On Clark street they would be walking.

Q Was there any more people there than ordinarily on Clark street on a night walking back and forth in that neighborhood of Madion street?

A That is my opinion. I think there were right in that vicinity of Desplaines.

Q You staid there about an hour---where did you go?

A Up to the station.

Q Desplaines street?

A Yes sir.

Q What did you do when you got there?

A Staid in the office.

Q Whose office?

A Office of the police station.

Q How long did you stay there?

A Possibly twenty minutes, may be half an hour.

Q Who were present there at the time you were there?

A Capt. Ward. Mr. Bonfield and some police officers in and out.

Q Did you know any of the police officers?

A I didn't.

Q What room were you in?

A In the office.

Q In Capt. Ward's office?

A In the police station office.

Q In the outer office?

A In the outer large office.

Q Not in the private office?

A No sir.

Q The office in which there is a large counter?

A That is it.

Q Upon which the desk of the sergeant stands--anybody there you knew except Capt. Ward and Bonfield??

A Not until Mayor Harrison came in.

Q Did you have any conversation with Mayor Harrison at that time?

A I did.

Q How long did you talk with him?

A Two or three minutes maybe.

Q Was he present the time you had the conversation with Bonfield in regard to which you testified?

A No sir.

Q Was Capt. Ward?

A No sir.

Q Was anybody besides you and Bonfield?

A No sir.

Q Did you ever know Bonfield before that?

A No sir.

Q You and Bonfield simply stood there together and had that conversation?

A Yes sir.

Q You never had spoken to him before that?

A No sir.

Q Did you give him your name?

A Yes sir.

Q Did he ask you where you lived?

A Mr. Ward introduced me.

Q Did he ask you where you lived?

A No sir.

Q You remember Ward introduced you?

A Yes sir.

Q Where did you and Bonfield stay when you had that conversation by yourselves?

A In the office.

Q Which office?

A In the main office.

Q Where was Ward at that time?

A I think he was walking around.

Q Was he where he could have heard any of that conversation??

A That I don't know.

Q Was there anybody standing there near who could have heard that conversation whom you knew?

A I presume not for this reason. There was a good deal of noise in that police station and we talked quietly.

Q So that no one could hear it except yourselves. You believe that no one could hear it except the Inspector and yourself?

A That is it.

Q How long were you talking?

A Two, three, four or five minutes maybe.

Q What did you do after that?

A I stayed around the office a while.

Q How long were you there?

A It may have been twenty minutes, may have been as much as forty five, half an hour to forty-fove, something around there.

Q Who else did you have the conversation there with?

A Mayor Harrison.

Q How long did you talk with the Mayor?

A Two or three minutes.

Q Then you left the station?

A Yes sir.

Q Where did you go?

A I went up on the iron stairway.

Q How long did you stay there??

A From the time Parsons was speaking until the end of the meeting.

Q Parsons was speaking when you got there, was he?

A That I wont be definite about. I am not definite as

to just who was speaking, but my impression is that I heard about all of Parson's speech.

Q Now, you say that you were first walking up and down the haymarket half an hour or there abouts?

A Yes sir.

Q That you went from there to the police station, that you were in this outer room of the police station, the main office; that you there had the conversation with Inspector Bonfield; that you were in that room from twenty minutes to three quarters of an hour--is that right?

A Yes sir.

Q You then went from there back to the haymarket, crossed the haymarket and went up the iron stairway-- is that right?

A That is right.

Q When you got up the stairway you heard Parsons speaking?

A Well, in the meantime before I went up on the iron stairway I circulated a little around the crowd, and then I went up on the iron stairway.

Q Where was the crowd you circulated around?

A It was in the vicinity of the wagon.

Q About how far were you from the wagon?

A I came on the sidewalk, probably not ten feet from the wagon at that time.

Q Who was the first speaker you heard?

A Mr. Spies.

Q What did you hear Spies say?

A He called the meeting to order.

Q What did he say when he called the meeting to order?

A He said the meeting was not called to incite a riot.

Q Was that the first thing he said?

A That is my impression.

Q Did he give any reason for making that remark that you heard, or did he simply say that the meeting was not called for the purpose of inciting a riot?

A I don't distinctly remember.

Q Did he give any reason that you now remember for making that remark, that the meeting was not called for the purpose of inciting a riot?

A I don't remember.

Q At that time how many people were around the speakers stand?

A Maybe a thousand.

Q But that remark impressed itself upon your memory so you now recollect it and cannot be mistaken about his saying it?

A Yes sir.

Q You can't be mistaken about that?

A Shall I tell you why?

Q No, I simply ask you whether it impressed itself upon your memory so you cannot be mistaken about his saying it?

A That is what I say.

Q What else did he say if you remember?

A He spoke of the McCormick trouble.

Q What did he say about that that you recollect?

A He said that somebody had objected to his speaking there.

Q What else did he say?

A He said that McCormick had charged him I believe with the cause of the murder.

Q Anything else?

A He said the pople he addressed there were good Christian church going people.

Q What else did he say?

A He said that McCormick told a lie when he said he was responsible.

Q Anything else that you remember?

A It don't just come to my mind.

Q That is everything that you can remember about what Spies said?

A Just now.

Q How long were you listening to Spies?

A That I will have to guess at.

Q Well, guess at?

A Fifteen, twenty or twenty-five minutes --it is just a guess.

Q Then where did you go ---were you all the time in the crowd while you were listening to Spies?

A Yes sir.

Q Then where did you go? When was it you visited the north side station in regard to the Salvation Army meetings?

A My impression is that it was in last fall.

Q You went there how many times?

A To the Salvation Army meetings?

Q Yes sir?

A Possibly half a dozen times.

Q Do you remember your first visit ---I don't mean to the Salvation Army meetings, but to the police station?

A Do I remember my first visit there?

Q Yes sir?

A I remember my visits there, but it is indistinct as to which was the first.

Q Did you see Capt. Schaack?

A Yes sir.

Q You went on one occasion to ask him to arrest people who disturbed the meeting?

A No sir, I didn't.

Q Didn't you go there to ask him to arrest people for disturbing the meeting?

A I told him I didn't believe in that proceeding.

Q You went there to ask him to arrest the Salvation Army people?

A I did not.

Q What did you go there for then?

A I told him that the people there told me ---I told him in going to the meeting I heard somebody swear a very vicious oath and damn the Salvation Army people. The police were standing within hearing and the crowd joined in the laugh. I told him that it seemed to me that the police ought not to allow anything of that kind. The windows of the Salvation Army were filled up with boards. I told him that it did not seem right that right in front of the police station that they should do any such thing. He said that he would order the boards taken down, and if they wanted protection they could get it.

Q Did you make any other visit to him in regard to the Salvation Army?

A I think I did once, my impression is.

Q Did you as a matter of fact?

A I think two or three times.

Q For what purpose did you go then?

A It was when that trouble was.

Q Dind't you go then to ask him to have the Salvation Army people arrested for firing you out of the room?

A I never was fired out of any room.

Q That does not answer the question?

A I did not.

Q What did you go there for?

A I don't remember outside of the fact that when the Salvation Army people were arrested for marching on the street, I went to Mayor Harrison.

Q I don't ask you a word about Mayor Harrison. I am asking you about Capt. Schaack?

A I am telling you--

Q Go ahead and explain it?

A He gave me a note. They were in jail at the bridewell. He gave me a note telling Mr. Felton to let them go. I went in there and told that to Mr. Schaack.

Q Is that the only time you went there in regard to them?

A That is the best of my recollection.

Q Didn't you ever go there and make complaint against them?

A Never.

Q For yourself?

A Never.

Q You are positive of that?

A Positive.

Q How many times did you go there altogether?

A Two or three times.

Q After you heard Spies finish his speech what did you

do?

A I didn't say I heard him finish.

Q Where were you when he finished?

A I don't know.

Q You were circulating in the crowd, weren't you?

A Not at the time he finished.

Q Where were you when he finished?

A It may be possible I was at the police station.

Q Did you go back to the police station the second time?

A I was there two times.

Q After you heard Spies call the meeting to order you went back to the station the second time? How long did you stay there the second time?

A That is the time I refer to.

Q That is the time you refer to, the time you had the conversation with Bonfield?

A No sir, it was the first time.

Q What took place when you were there the second time?

A That was the time that I met Mayor Harrison.

Q And had the conversation with him?

A Yes sir.

Q How long were you here that time?

A About ten or fifteen minutes.

Q What room were you in?

A I was in the office, the general office.

Q The visiting office?

A Correct.

Q Did you talk with anybody at that time except the mayor?

A Not that I remember.

Q After you left the office, where did you go?

A I

went up to the meeting.

Q Did you circulate in the meeting again?

A That was the time I referred to and before that I circulated some in the meeting.

Q Where were you between the two occasions, the two times you were at the police station?

A I was around hearing the speaking, hearing Mr. Spies.

Q Spies had been speaking before you went the second time to the police station?

A That is so.

Q Then you went back to the police station and had a talk to the mayor?

A Yes sir.

Q Then you returned and went back to the crowd where Spies was speaking?

A Yes sir.

Q When you got back there who was speaking?

A That I don't distinctly remember.

Q Was Spies?

A I don't distinctly remember.

Q What did you do?

A I went around the crowd a while and then went up on the iron stairway.

Q How long were you circulating around in the crowd the second time?

A It may have been five minutes or ten minutes.

Q What were you looking at?

A Nothing particularly. Just a matter of putting in time to hear, the meeting and wherever I felt inclined to stand.

Q You said you didn't hear any speaking?

A I beg your pardon.

Q You said you didn't hear any speaking?

A I beg your pardon.

Q You said you could not tell who was speaking? A

A After I went the second time.

Q Yes sir?

A I heard it.

Q You can't tell who it was?

A I can't positively.

Q It don't impress itself on your mind?--what they said did not impress itself on your mind?

A Yes sir.

Q What did the speaker say at that time?

A I don't remember at that time.

Q After you quit circulating around among the crowd, what did you do?

A Went up on the iron stairway.

Q How far up on the iron stairway did you go?

A about half way.

Q Who did you meet?

A A reporter spoke to me afterwards from the top. Fielden was speaking.

Q Did you hear Parsons speak while you were there?

A Yes sir.

Q What did you hear parsons say?

A I heard him say at one time: "To arms, to arms"--in what connection I don't remember. It rather startled me because I never heard anything--

Q Because it startled you,you can't remember the connection?

A No sir, only that called my attention, because it was startling---I never heard anything before.

Q The words "To arms" did startle you?

A Yes sir, they did.

Q Did he say anything else that startled you?

A He said one or two things that impressed me.

Q What did he say that impressed you so you can recollect it?

A He stated about the profit that the capitalist or employer, and the part he gave to the employee or the laborer.

Q Which part of his speech was that in?

A I don't remember.

Q You heard that.

A Yes sir.

Q In which he spoke of the division of the profits between the laborer and the capitalist?

A Yes sir.

Q That impressed you?

A Yes sir.

Q What besides that did you hear him say?

A He mentioned the name of Jay Gould to the best of my recollection---I don't know in what connection.

Q Did you hear anything else besides the name of Jay Gould?

A If you will read something that was said, I can tell you better.

Q I don't care to read anything that was said. You are the witness.

A If I don't remember everything---

Q If I should read it you could remember it?

A I could remember somethings, yes sir---no doubt of it. I asked Mr. Black a few days ago for the speeches as soon as he could give them to me. He promised to do so, and he never gave them to me---whether he forgot it or not I don't know.

Q You wanted the speeches so you could read them there, in order to answer what they said?

A Yes sir.

Q Because you have not read them over yo can't recollect any more than you do now?

A That is so.

Q If I should read what was said there you would recollect it?

A I would recollect some of them, yes sir.

Q So that all you can recollect of what Parsons said was using the words "Jay Gould" and about the division of profits between the laborer and the capitalists, and the expression "To arms?"

A Yes sir, when he said "Jay Gould" somebody said "Hang him" or "Shoot him." He said "No"--and the words I can't quote, but the idea conveyed to me was that "If you will kill Jay Gould another man or a great many other men will come up and take his place.

Socialism does not aim at the lives of individuals, but at the system which produces---"

Q Was that a very startling remark?

A I was a little surptised at that, yes sir.

Q You were startled by that?

A No.

Q But it did impress itself upon your mind?

A Yes sir.

Q Is that all you can recollect of all Parsons said?

A Yes sir, just now. I might recollect something more in a few minutes.

Q Did Parsons say everything which you remembered him to have said while you were standing up there on the steps?

A I think he did.

Q Did you hear Fielden speak?

A I did.

Q What did you hear Fielden say that you can remember?

A Well, he spoke of this congressman or somebody that had been elected by the working men; that that congressman had admitted that no legislation in favor of the workingman could succeed or could be put through--I forget which.

Q What else did he say?

A He said a man confessing such a thing ought not to be elected to waste his time.

Q What else did he say if you remember?

A Just now I can't recall.

Q That is all you can recall?

A Just now? If you want to read more, I can tell you.

Q Suppose I should read something he didn't say?

A I should try to answer truthfully.

Q Could you tell whether he said it from my repeating it or not?

A I could some things. Some things would recur to me.

Q Do you remember whether he said anything about laboringmen not being able to get their rights under the law at all or anything to that effect, then he said this---that the laboringmen should not send such a man to work for their interest, or the laboring interests, who confessed that nothing could be done by legislation in favor of them.

Q He was opposed to the man?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember the name? Was the name Foran?

A Yes, that is it

Q He was opposed to Foran?

A He was opposed to having that man to go to congress.

Q He thought that man did not properly represent the working man?

A I don't know that he did.

Q Was not that the effect of it?

A No, the effect was, that that man confessed that through legislation nothing could be done.

Q And that such a man ought not be returned to congress?

A No, and that there was no use in electing him if

that was as he claimed.

Q What did he say should be done with the workingmen?

A I don't distinctly remember.

Q You can't recollect anything about what he said?

A I can't just now.

Q Did he say anything about throtling the law?

A Yes sir, he did.

Q Do you recall what he said in that connection?

A To the best of my recollection he says: "The law is your enemy, kill it, stab it, throttle it."

Q Did he use the word "Stab." Are you positive?

A That is my impression---I would not say so.

Q Have you attended this trial?

A I have two or three times.

Q How many times have you been here?

A Not to exceed four--maybe three times.

Q Havn't you been here more than that?

A I have not.

Q You are certain he used the word "Stab?"

A I think he used it.

Q And the word "Throttle?"

A I think he used it?

Q You are positive?

A I think he did.

Q What else did he say there you could testify to positively?

A This I don't know positively--"Or" he concluded "It will throttle you."

Q You could not recollect all distinctly?

A No, my impression is he said that.

Q Have you read any of the reports of the trial in the papers?

A I have read a dozen of them.

Q You read what was testified to by the witnesses as to what was said there?

A Yes sir.

Q You recollect distinctly that he used those words?

A I think he used those words.

Q What else did he say that you recollect?

A I can't say now unless you bring up something.

Q Nothing else that impressed itself upon your mind?

A When somebody called out and said: "We will adjourn" he said "I am about through." I remember that---if that is what you mean.

Q Do you remember what he was saying when the police came to Randolph street?

A I do not.

Q Who did you watch after that, the police or the speakers?

A I don't know. There was a good deal of confusion. I don't know as I watched anybody particularly.

Q Who did you give your attention to?

A I gave my attention to myself probably because I thought "Hadn't I better run," but I thought "I am here and the police will be past me, and if there is any shooting it will be the other side of me."

Q You thought at that time when you saw the police first

at Randolph street, you deliberated in your own mind as to whether you had better run or not?

A That was so.

Q Didn't you look at the police?

A That was so.

Q Or at the crowd

A Yes sir.

Q Whom did you watch?

A I don't know.

Q Did you watch both?

A I possibly did to some extent.

Q How many columns of police were there?

A I don't know.

Q As they moved down the street, can't you tell?

A I don't know what a column is.

Q How many lines were standing across the street?

A I don't know.

Q Were they walking solidly together? Or were they separate?

A When I see them over about at Randolph street tracks, I saw a column or straight line.

Q What do you mean by column?

A I mean by a column men walking side by side, advancing evenly.

Q You know what a column is?

A I don't know whether you call that a column or not. That is what I mean by a column.

Q You used the word column before?

A I give my interpretation of column.

Q You saw one column anyhow?

A Yes sir.

Q How wide was that column?

A When it came to desplaines street it filled I think the whole street.

Q The whole street clear across from side to side?

A Yes sir, that is so.

Q Did you see whether there was more than lone column as you called them there?

A There was more.

Q How many were there?

A I don't know?

Q Were the columns marching close together, or were they wide apart?

A That I would not be definite about.

Q You were up on the platform where you could see them?

A Yes sir.

Q You turned around and looked at them?

A I did not turn around.

Q You did look at them?

A I did look at them.

Q You at the same time were contemplating the question of your own safety?

A Correct.

Q Where did you next see them?

A Saw them advancing until they got almost even with the wagon.

Q Did you keep your eye on them while they were advancing?

A I don't know that I did particularly.

Q Did you keep your eye on the wagon?

A No sir.

Q Did you look at the wagon?

A I looked in the direction.

Q How many times did youlook in that direction?

A (No response).

Recess to two o'clock.

2 o'clock P.M.
Court reassembled.

Q As the police marched down, what officers marched in front of them?

A I don't know.

Q You cannot tell from where you were standing?

A I could not.

Q How far was the wagon from the alley, the wagon on which the speakers were standing?

A My impression would be possibly three, four to ten feet.

Q At the time the bomb was thrown how many were standing on the wagon?

A I don't know.

Q Was there any one standing upon the wagon that you know of?

A No sir.

Q What were you looking at just before the bomb was thrown?

A Nothing in particular.

Q What were you looking at in general?

A Everything.

Q You were not looking at the wagon?

A I was looking that way.

Q You can't tell whether any one was on the wagon or not?

A I could if I had looked specially to see, but I don't remember my attention being called to it.

Q Was your attention called to anything in particular

at that time?

A There was no object in me looking at anything particular, but my attention was called particularly when I saw the light issuing from---

Q I said just before the bomb was thrown?

A No, there was a great deal of confusion.

Q Was your attention called to anything particularly just before the bomb was thrown?

A I can't say that it was.

Q Did you see the officer command the meeting to disperse?

A I didn't see him.

Q Did you hear him?

A I heard somebody, in some form tell the meeting to disperse.

Q What did he say?

A The only words that I remember were "Command--meeting---to disperse."

Q Did you hear the word "command?"

A My impression is I did.

Q Did you hear the word "meeting?"

A I think I did.

Q Then you heard the word "Disperse?"

A I think I did.

Q What reply did you hear to that?

A I didn't hear any.

Q Didn't hear any reply?

A I heard during the delivery of that or right after the delivery of that I heard somebody say something, I caught two words "Peaceable meeting."

Q The only words you caught were the words "Peaceable" and the word "Meeting?"

A Yes sir.

Q Who was it said that?

A I don't know.

Q Where you looking at the officer at the time he commanded the meeting to disperse?

A I was looking that way.

Q In the direction of the wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q What did you hear then after the command to disperse?

A I heard what I stated about "Peaceable meeting."

Q I will ask you again what you heard?

A That is my answer.

Q Just the words "Peaceable meeting?"

A That is all I can recollect.

Q What is the next thing you heard?

A I heard the bomb go off.

Q When did the bomb go off?

A I should judge at that time, it looked as if it went off about the center of the street, directly west of the alley.

Q At the time the bomb went off, where was the first column of policemen standing?

A I thought, my impression was at that time that they were about even with the north line of the alley.

Q Do you think so now?

A I have had no reason--I am not thinking now, I am saying what occurred to me then.

Q Where was the second column standing?

A I don't know.

Q Did you see the bomb explode?

A I did.

Q Where was the second column standing with reference to where the bomb exploded?

A I don't know.

Q Where was the front column standing at that time?

A I don't know.

Q Did you see the third column at that time?

A I don't remember. I could not be positive of anything. I only saw the police in a large body march out.

Q Do you remember distinctly seeing the bomb explode?

A I do.

Q Do you remember where the police men were standing with reference to that bomb, any of them?

A At the time it looked as if the bomb struck and exploded just a little behind the front column or line of the police.

Q At that time from the position in which you were standing, did you see the second column?

A I don't remember.about the second column. I only remember seeing the police.

Q You don't remember seeing them?

A I am not putting it the way you are.

Q Did you see the second column at the time the bomb exploded?

A If you mean I saw some men behind the first men--yes.

Q How far were they behind the first men?

A I don't know.

Q Were they policemen?

A They were policemen.

Q Do you know where the third column was at that time?

A I did not.

Q You think it exploded just back of the first column?

A I didn't say so.

Q I understood you to?

A No sir.

Q Where do you now say it exploded with reference to the police or, any of the columns?

A It exploded directly behind or it exploded behind some of the police who were in front whether it was between the first or second, or second and third, or third and fourth---I don't know.

Q The only column you remember to have seen at that time was the first column?

A No sir, I saw other police.

Q Where were the other columns?

A They were behind the first ones.

Q How far behind were they?

A That I don't know.

Q How far behind was the third column?

A I told you I don't know.

Q Where was the third column with reference to you and your position?

A I don't know.

Q Where did the firing begin?

A From the police.

Q From what portion of the police?

A I don't know.

Q Where with reference to the bomb?

A How do you mean?

Q Were any policemen around the neighborhood of the mob?

A The firing commenced right in the center of the street where the police were.

Q Right in the center of the street where the police were?

A Yes sir.

Q You are certain of that?

A I am positive.

Q Did you see any one from the crowd on either side of the street fire any revolver or shots?

A I did not.

Q Not a single shot?

A Not a single shot.

Q You stood there looking over the scene?

A I did.

Q You thought you were safer there than on the ground?

A I did for a short time.

Q You thought that was a dangerous place and ran away?

A Yes sir.

Q While you were standing there, did you see a single shot fired out from the sidewalk?

A I did not.

Q Every shot you seen fired came from the police?

A It was in the vicinity about where the police were I saw the shooting from.

Q There were three columns of police altogether?

A I don't know.

Q Can't you tell how many lines of policemen marched down?

A No sir.

Q Can't you tell whether they marched down in lines separated from each other by eight, ten, fifteen or twenty feet?

A I don't know.

Q What became of the men on the wagon?

A I don't know

Q You didn't notice the wagon any longer?

A No sir.

Q Do you know whether anybody in the neighborhood of the wagon fired any shots?

A I don't think anybody could

have fired from behind or on the wagon.

Q I didn't say anything about from behind or on the wagon. I said did anybody in the neighborhood of the wagon fire?

A How far would you put it?

Q Around anywhere around the wagon?

Mr. BLACK: Upon and around is in the neighborhood.

THE COURT: The question was in the neighborhood.

Mr. BLACK: He was interrupted in the midst of his answer.

Mr. INGHAM: What is your answer to it?

A What is your question?

THE COURT: That would mean near the wagon, so that at the same view you could see the flash and the wagon when you were looking in that direction.

THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection I don't think there were any shots fiered within a few feet of the wagon.

Q Were you looking at the wagon?

A I was looking over the scene generally.

Q Were you looking at the wagon all the time?

A No sir

Q You were not?

A No sir.

Q Why couldn't shots have been fired when you were not looking?

A For this reason. If you get up on a place as

high as that, and it was dark and a great many shots or some shots would be fired, you could see every flash.

Q No? I could not.

A I think you could. You could tell where they came from---I beg your pardon. The flashes show themselves immediately when they are out of the revolver in a dark night. You don't see them twenty feet away. You see them as they go out of the revolver. The scene impressed itself upon me so that now looking back, I see it as I did then.

Q What makes you think no shots were fired from the wagon or from behind the wagon?

A Because I would have noticed if there had been.

Q Why would you have noticed that particularly?

A I would not have noticed that particularly, but think I would have known if any such thing had occurred.

Q Were you looking in that derection?

A I was.

Q Were any shots fired from the west side of the street, from the sidewalk?

A I didn't see any.

Q Were any fired?

A I didn't see any.

Q Were any fired around the neighborhood of the boxes?

A I didn't see any.

Q Could you have seen them if they had been?

A Yes sir.

Q If they had been fired, from the west sidewalk could you have seen them?

A That is not positive.

Q You have sworn that no shots were fired from the other side of the sidewalk?

Mr. BLACK: He has sworn he did not see any.

Mr. INGHAM: Do you mean to say that as a matter of fact no shots were fired from either sidewalk?

A I said as far as I could see there were no shots fired from either sidewalk.

Q Could you see everything from where you were standing?

A Everything where---

Q That took place?

A No sir.

Q Was your attention a prticularly directed to the wagon at the time the bomb exploded?

A It was directed towards that direction.

Q Or was it towards the bomb?

A If you look at where the bomb exploded, you could not help looking towards the wagon.

Q You would have to see the wagon too?

A You would have to look in that direction.

Q What was the crowd doing when the police come up there?

A They separated and let the police, gave the police the middle of the street.

Q When thwy separated, where did they go?

A Some went on the side of the sidewalk and some went north.

Q How many people to the sidewalk, what proportion of the crowd?

A I don't know.

Q How large a crowd was there around the wagon at the time Ward commanded them to disperse?

A I don't know.

Q About how large?

A I am not competent to say.

Q Were there ten or five hundred?

A Probably nearer five hundred than ten.

Q What became of the most of these people--did they step to the sidewalk or go north?

A I don't know.

Q You don't know that?

A No sir.

Q How were the boxes on the other side of the street from you?

A I don't know.

Q As high up as an ordinary man's head?

A My impression is they were two, three or four feet.

Q Where was the bomb when you first saw it?

A It was possibly six or seven feet up in the air, just coming up from the center of the sidwalk.

Q Just coming from the center of the sidewalk?

A About the center.

Q You are positive it came from the center?

A I am positive it came from about twenty feet south of the alley.

Q Have you been there since that day to look at the locality?

A Yes sir.

Q When did you go there?

A I have been there two or three times.

Q How lately have you been there?

A I have not been there in a few weeks.

Q Were you there about two weeks ago?

A No sir, I don't think I have been there. Well, let me see--I have not been there in maybe five or six times before I made my last trip.

Q When was your last trip?

A I got home a couple of weeks ago.

Q Have you been there since?

A I have not.

Q What have you done since you got home a couple of weeks ago?

A I have been at the store.

Q All that time?

A I have been there all the time I would ordinarily be there, yes sir.

Q How many times have you been at the store since you came home two weeks ago?

A I have been there almost every day with the exception of the last few days.

Q What do you mean by the last few days?

A Well, let me see--Friday and Saturday, possibly Thursday.

Q Now, with the exception of those three days have you been at the store every day?

A About every day. It was not necessary for me to be at the store.

Q How many times have you been there?

A About every day.

Q How soon after the occurrence, did you go back to look over the ground?

A I don't know. It may have been three or four days, or it may have been two weeks---I am not posititive. I have been there possibly not over three or four times.

Q Why did you go back?

A I went back so as to make up my mind, and get my idea of the distance as well as I could remember.

Q Had anybody asked you to go back?

A Nobody.

Q Nobody asked you?

A Never.

Q You went of your own volition?

A I did.

Q You want back maybe two weeks after that?

A It may have been.

Q Or a few days, within a few days of two weeks at any rate?

A Yes sir.

Q When did you go the second time?

A I cannot give you the different times I went. Whenever I went home to mother's for dinner which I usually do when at home. I think three or four times, possibly four, although probably not more than three. I have walked past there at one time, went up to settle about where I stood that night, and tried to get the dimensions of the thing.

Q When did first you go to Capt. Black about this case?

A I should judge it was two or three weeks after it occurred. I am not sure. It might have been a month.

Q Did any body send you to him?

A Nobody.

Q You went of your own volition?

A I did.

Q That was not later than a month after the transaction?

A It may have been a week later, but it was not very long, two weeks or a month.

Q Who were you working for on the 4th of May?

A E. Rothscild, clothier.

Q What were you doing for them at that time?

A When I am out I am trying to sell goods. When I am at home I sort of look after any letters that come for me and any business that people call to see me about.

Q In what way are you employed, on salary or commission?

A It amounts to the same. I don't know that I have to state any special arrangement do I. I make a living.

Q You make a living. I want to know whether you were employed on salary or commission?

A The more I sell the more I make.

Q Have you any salary?

A I have been offered a salary.

Q I don't ask you what you have been offered. Have you a salary from them?

A I have no designated amount that I draw. I have drawn a salary.

Q You have drawn a salary?

A Well, I have drawn so much.

Q You know whether you get a salary or not?

A I didn't draw any certain amount.

Q You get commissions on what you sell?

A That is about it.

Q When did you begin for them?

A The first of January.

Q How much of the time have you travelled for them since that?

A Possibly two-thirds or three-fourths the time.

Q What was the last trip you made just before the 4th of

May?

A That I don't remember.

Q Do you remember where you had been?

A Yes, I had been to Minnesota.

Q How long had you been back?

A I don't think I had been long back.

Q Can you tell about how long?

A I cannot.

Q How long did your trip in Minnesota last?

A They generally last four or five weeks, from three and a half to five weeks.

Q After you had made that trip did you report directly to the firm?

A I did.

Q As soon as you got back to the city?

A I think I did I usually do.

Q Can you tell how many days that was before the 4th of May?

A I cannot.

Q Where do you live in Lake View?

A Graceland and Evanston Avenue.

Q Did you ever live in Evanston?

A I did.

Q Or north Evanston?

A Yes.

Q Which place?

A I lived both in Evanston and North Evanston.

Q When did you live in North Evanston?

A Lived there, I don't remember just--two or three years back.

Q Can you tell what years?

A Possibly three years ago- yes sir, three years ago I think.

Q How long did you live there?

A I lived there, I think it was a year.

Q Are the streets in North Evanston named?

A I don't think so. Not up where I lived.

Q How long did you live in Evanston?

A I lived there I think just a year.

Q What year was that?

A That was probably two or three years previous, with my mother's sister.

Q Where did you live in Evanston?

A I think it was Grove street.

Q Do you remember what number?

A I do not. I don't think there is any number there.

Q Near what other street?

A It was west of the road, on the west end of Evanston.

Mr. BLACK: The question I omitted was this: Have you any personal acquaintance with any of the defendants?

A I have never to my knowledge seen any of the defendants before.

Q You are a married man?

A I am.

Q And are living in Lake View with your family?

A I am