Direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Detective, while working undercover became a member of the American Group of the International Workingmen's Association. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.J 431), weapons and explosives (vol.J 407), socialists and/or socialism (vol.J 394), communists and/or communism (vol.J 397), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.J 397), advocating revolution (vol.J 411), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.J 410), the Alarm (vol.J 402), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.J 406), 1885 April 28 Board of Trade protest (vol.J 408), Greif's Hall (vol.J 399), eight-hour movement (vol.J 425), Pinkerton National Detective Agency (vol.J 394), religion (vol.J 400), International Workingmen's Association (vol.J 394), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.J 415), the American Group (vol.J 394), Spies, August (vol.J 430), Parsons, Albert (vol.J 394), Schwab, Michael (vol.J 394), Fielden, Samuel (vol.J 394), Neebe, Oscar (vol.J 394).

A WITNESS FOR THE PEOPLE, HAVING BEEN DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED IN CHIEF BY MR. GRINNELL AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

Q WHAT IS YOUR NAME?

A ANDREW C. JOHNSON.

Q WHAT IS YOUR BUSINESS?

A I AM A DETECTIVE OF PINKERTON'S NATIONAL AGENCY, THIS CITY.

Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN EMPLOYED BY PINKERTON'S NATIONAL AGENCY OF THIS CITY?

A ABOUT THREE YEARS.

Q WHERE WERE YOU BORN?

A COPENHAGEN, DENMARK.

Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY?

A ABOUT SIX YEARS.

Q DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS?

A I DO.

Q NAME THEM.

A PARSONS, FIELDEN, SPIES, SCHWAB AND NEEBE.

Q WERE YOU AT ANY TIME CONNECTED WITH ANY SOCIALISTIC ORGANIZATION IN THIS CITY OF CHICAGO?

A I WAS.

Q WERE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY GROUP OF THE INTERNATIONAL WORKINGMEN'S ASSOCIATION?

A I WAS.

Q WHAT GROUP?

A THE AMERICAN GROUP.

Q WERE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY ARMED SECTION OF THE SOCIALISTS

IN THIS CITY AT ANY TIME?

A I WAS.

Q YOU HAVE ATTENDED THEIR MEETINGS FOR HOW LONG A TIME? WHEN DID YOU BEGIN THE ATTENDANT OF THEIR MEETINGS?

A THE FIRST MEETING I ATTENDED WAS ON THE 22ND OF FEBRUARY, 1885.

Q WHEN DID YOU CEASE ATTENDING THEIR MEETINGS?

A THE LAST MEETING I ATTENDED WAS ON THE 24TH OF JANUARY, THIS YEAR.

Q YOU WENT TO THEIR MEETINGS AT THE INSTANCE OF THE PINKERTON DETECTIVE AGENCY?

A I DID.

Q BECAME A MEMBER OF THAT ASSOCIATION AT THE INSTANCE OF THAT DETECTIVE AGENCY?

A YES SIR.

Q DID YOU AT THAT TIME, FROM TIME TO TIME, AS YOU ATTENDED THEIR MEETINGS, MAKE A REPORT IN WRITING OF WHAT YOU HEARD AND SAW?

A I DID.

Q BEGIN WITH THE MEETING ON THE 25TH DAY OF FEBRUARY, 1885. HAVE YOU IN YOUR HANDS, IN YOUR OWN HANDWRITING, THE REPORT OF THAT MEETING?

A I HAVE.

THE COURT: THE 25TH OR 22ND OF FEBRUARY.

MR. GRINNELL: THE 22ND DAY OF FEBRUARY, 1885.

A YES.

Q CAN YOU, WITHOUT REFERRING TO IT, WITHOUT READING IT, GIVE ME THE PURPORT OF WHAT YOU HEARD? OR, FIRST, WAS ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS PRESENT AT THAT MEETING?

A THE DEFENDANT PARSON WAS PRESENT.

Q YOU MAY REFER TO YOUR MEMORANDA MADE BY YOURSELF AT THAT TIME AND TELL ME WHAT WAS SAID BY PARSONS AT THAT MEETING.

OBJECTED TO IN BEHALF OF ALL THE DEFENDANTS, AND PARTICULARLY IN BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS OTHER THAN PARSONS; OBJECTION OVERRULLED AND EXCEPTION BY DEFENDANTS.

Q I WILL ASK YOU FIRST, BEFORE WE PROCEED WITH THE REPORT IN ORDER, WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THESE REPORTS?

A I RETURNED THEM TO THE AGENCY.

Q LEFT THEM WITH THE AGENCY?

A LEFT THEM WITH THE SUPERINTENDENT.

MR. SALONON: NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK IF YOUR HONOR WISHES US TO SPECIFY THE GROUND OF OUR OBJECTIONS, OR WHETHER A SIMPLE OBJECTION IS SUFFICIENT WITHOUT STATING EACH TIME ALL THE GROUNDS OF OBJECTION.

THE COURT: I DO NOT SUPPOSE IT MAKES ANY DIFFERENCE ABOUT YOUR STATING THE GROUND, BECAUSE IF THE EVIDENCE IS COMPETENT, THEN IT DON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE HOW MANY ARGUMENTS THERE ARE AGAINST IT; AND IF IT IS NOT COMPETENT, THEN THERE IS NO REASON FOR SPECIFYING ANY OBJECTION TO IT. WHEREVER THE OBJECTIONS ARE SPECIAL AND WHICH MIGHT BE REMOVED, THEN IT IS NECESSARY TO SPECIFY THE OBJECTIONS; AS, FOR EXAMPLE, SUPPOSING A DOCUMENT IS OFFERED IN EVIDENCE WITHOUT PROVING THE HANDWRITING, WHEN IF THE HANDWRITING WAS PROVED IT WOULD BE COMPETENT, THEN, IF THE OBJECTION TO THE DOCUMENT IS WITHELD, IT WOULD BE OF NO AVAIL AFTERWARDS TO SAY THAT THE HANDWRITING WAS NOT PROVED, BECAUSE THAT SPECIAL OBJECTION

SHOULD HAVE BEEN POINTED OUT, SO THAT IT MAY HAVE BEEN REMOVED. BUT OBJECTIONS WHICH CANNOT BE REMOVED NEED NOT BE SPECIFIED.

MR. SALOMON: VERY WELL, THEN WE DO NOT WANT TO SPECIFY THE GROUND. IT MAY BE UNDERSTOOD AS STATED.

MR. GRINNELL: [Q]--PLEASE REFER TO THAT REPORT OF THE 22ND DAY OF FEBRUARY, 1885, WHICH YOU SAY IS IN YOUR HANDWRITING, AND AFTER HAVING REFRESHED YOUR MEMORY FROM READING IT, TELL THE JURY WHAT, IF ANYTHING, PARSONS SAID AT THAT MEETING?

A |REFERRING TO MEMORANDA|. PARSONS STATED THAT THE REASON THE MEETING HAD BEEN CALLED IN THAT LOCALITY WAS SO TO GIVE THE MANY MERCHANT PRINCES WHO RESIDED THERE AN OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEND AND HEAR WHAT THE COMMUNISTS HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH. HE THEN WENT ON TO STATE---

MR. FOSTER: DON'T READ IT.

THE WITNESS: HE DENOUNCED THE CAPITALISTS IN GENERAL, URGED ALL WORKINGMEN PRESENT-

MR. BLACK: DON'T SAY WHAT HE URGED. GIVE US WHAT HE SAID.

THE COURT: REPEAT THE WORDS THAT HE USED.

MR. GRINNELL: THEY OBJECT TO YOUR USE OF THE WORD "URGED".

MR. BLACK: NO SIR; WE OBJECT TO THE WORD "DENOUNCED." WE OBJECT IN THE FIRST PLACE TO HIS QUOTING HIS REPORT.

THE COURT: IN GIVING YOUR TESTIMONY, GIVE AS NEARLY AS YOU CAN REMEMBER THE WORDS WHICH THE DEFENDANT USED AND NOT CHARACTERIZE THE WORDS BY ANY WORDS OF YOUR OWN.

THE WITNESS: HE URGED ON THE WORKINGMEN PRESENT----

MR. FOSTER: NO. WHAT DID HE SAY.

THE COURT: WHAT DID HE SAY?

A HE SAID; "I WANT YOU ALL TO UNITE TOGETHER AND THROW OFF THE YOKE; WE NEED NO PRESIDENT, NO CONGRESSMEN, NO POLICE AND NO MILITIA AND NO JUDGES; THEY ARE ALL LEECHES SUCKING THE BLOOD OF THE POOR WHO HAS TO SUPPORT THEM ALL BY THEIR LABOR; I SAY TO YOU, RISE ONE AND ALL AND LET US EXTERMINATE THAN ALL. WOE TO THE POLICE OR TO THE MILITIA WHO THEY SEND AGAINST US."

MR. GRINNELL: THAT, WAS AT BAUM'S PAVILION?

A AT BAUM'S PAVILION, CORNER OF COTTAGE GROVE AND TWENTY SECOND STREET.

Q HAVE YOU A REPORT OF ANY OF THE OTHER DEFENDANTS, SPEAKING AT THAT MEETING?

A NO.

Q WHAT IS THE NEXT REPORT THAT YOU HAVE?

MR. SALOMON: WHEN YOU SPEAK OF THE REPORT YOU MEAN THE MEMORANDUM THAT HE MADE.

MR. GRINNELL: THAT IS WHAT I MEAN, YES; IT IS HIS REPORT MEMORANDUM THAT HE MADE ABOUT THE MEETING.

THE WITNESS: THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON THE 1ST OF MARCH, ON THAT OCCASION I BECAME A MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL WORKING PEOPLE'S ASSOCIATION.

Q HOW DID YOU COME TO BECOME A MEMBER?

A I WENT TO THE DEFENDANT FIELDEN WHO WAS AT THAT TIME ACTING AS TREASURER AND SECRATARY FOR THE ASSOCIATION; I GAVE HIM MY NAME AND SIGNIFIED MY WILLINGNESS TO JOIN THE ASSOCIATION. HE ENTERED MY NAME IN A BOOK AND HANDED ME A RED CARD WITH MY NAME ON AND A NUMBER.

Q WHEN AND WHERE WAS THAT?

A THAT WAS ON THE 1ST OF MARCH, 1885, AT GREIF' HALL, 54 WEST LAKE STREET, THIS CITY.

Q WELL, IN REFERENCE TO THE MEETING THAT YOU ATTENDED, WHEN WAS THAT DONE?

A THAT WAS ON THE SAME DAY, MARCH IST.

Q WELL, WAS IT AFTER THE MEETING OR BEFORE IT, IS WHAT I WISH TO GET AT?

A IT WAS AFTER THE MEETING, AT THE TERMINATION OF THE SPEAKING.

Q WHAT IS THE DATE?

A THAT WAS THE IST OF MARCH, I885.

Q HAVE YOU WHAT WAS SAID AND DONE AT THAT MEETING?

A I HAVE A REPORT OF THE MEETING.

Q WHO SPOKE?

A PARSONS, FIELDEN AND OTHERS.

Q ANY OF THE OTHER DEFENDANTS?

A NO.

Q YOU MAY STATE WHAT FIELDEN SAID AND THEN WHAT PARSONS SAID, OR WHICHEVER IS THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY SPOKE.

OBJECTED TO IN BEHALF OF ALL THE DEFENDANTS AND ESPECIALLY IN BEHALF OF THE SIX OTHER THAN PARSONS AND FIELDEN;

Q LOOK AT THAT MEMORANDUM FIRST AND STATE--

THE COURT: I SUPPOSE ONE GENERAL OBJECTION AND EXCEPTION TO HIS STATING ANYTHING AT ALL THESE DIFFERENT MEETINGS WOULD BE QUITE SUFFICIENT, BUT IF IT IS NOT THERE WILL BE NO OBJECTION TO A SPECIAL OBJECTION AND EXCEPTION BEING REPEATED IN THE RECORD AS TO

EACH MEETING.

MR. SALOMON: DOES YOUR HONOR WANT US TO REPEAT IT?

THE COURT: NO, REPEAT IT IN THE RECORD.

MR. GRINNELL: REFER TO YOUR MINUTES, MEMORANDUM OF THAT MEETING AS TO WHAT PARSONS AND FIELDEN RESPECTIVELY SAID, AND TELL THE JURY

A I WISH TO CORRECT MY FORMER STATEMENT. SPIES ALSO MADE A STATEMENT AT THAT MEETING.

Q AT WHICH?

A AT THIS MEETING ON THE 1ST OF MARCH.

Q VERY WELL.

A A LECTURE WAS GIVEN BY A MAN NAMED BAILEY AS TO SOCIALISM AND CHRISTIANITY. THAT WAS THE SUBJECT HE LECTURED ON, AND A GENERAL DISCUSSION AROSE AS TO WHETHER CHRISTIANITY OUGHT TO BE INTRODUCED INTO THEIR MEETINGS. SOME WERE FOR--

MR. FOSTER: NEVER MIND NOW, WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE ASKED A QUESTION.

MR. GRINNELL: WELL, YOU WERE TELLING WHAT THE SUBJECT OF THE MEETING WAS, THE SUBJECT OF THE DISCUSSION. WERE SOME FOR AND SOME AGAINST IT?

A YES.

Q NOW, WHAT DID THESE THREE MEN IN REFERENCE TO THAT, IN REFERENCE TO THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION, OR ANYTHING----WHAT DID THE SAY THERE?

A THE THREE DEFENDANTS, FIELDEN SPIES AND PARSONS----

MR. FOSTER: LET HIM TAKE ONE AT A TIME.

MR. GRINNELL: CERTAINLY.

THE COURT: TAKE ONE AND SAY WHAT HE SAID.

A I CANNOT REMEMBER WHAT EACH ONE SAID SEPERATELY, BUT ALL THREE--

MR. BLACK: NEVER MIND.

THE COURT: THE SUBSTANCE OF WHAT THEY SAID, ALTHOUGH HE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO REMEMBER THE WORDS.

THE WITNESS: FIELDEN SAID THAT HE THOUGHT CHRISTIANITY OUGHT NOT TO BE INTRODUCED IN THEIR MEETINGS. PARSONS ENDORSED FIELDEN REMARKS.

MR. FOSTER: DID HE SAY HE ENDORSED IT, OR WHAT DID HE SAY?

A "I AM OF THE SAME OPINION." SPIES, AS NEAR AS I CAN RECOLLECT, SAID THE SAME---THAT HE ALSO WAS OF THAT OPINION---IT OUGHT NOT TO BE INTRODUCED. THAT IS AS NEAR AS I CAN RECOLLECT.

MR. GRINNELL: WELL, WAS THAT THE SUBSTANCE OF THAT DISCUSSION?

A YES.

Q THAT IS AT 54 WEST LAKE STREET?

A A YES.

Q HAVE YOU STATED ALL THAT WAS SAID OR SUBSTANTIALLY ALL THAT WAS SAID AT THAT MARCH 1ST MEETING?

A YES.

Q VERY WELL, TAKE THE NEXT MEETING.

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON MARCH 4TH AT THE SAME PLACE.

Q WHO WERE PRESENT OF THE DEFENDANTS?

A PARSONS, FIELDEN AND SPIES PRESENT.

Q NOW, REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION FROM THE MEMORANDUM YOU THEN MADE THAT YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU, AND STATE TO ME THE ORDER OF THEIR SPEECHES AND WHAT THEY SAID RESPECTIVELY.

MR. FOSTER: THAT IS NOT A FAIR QUESTION, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT SAID THAT HE MADE THE MEMORANDUM AT THAT TIME.

MR. GRINNELL: WHEN IN REFERENCE TO THE MEETING ITSELF WAS THE REPORT MADE---WAS THIS MEMORANDUM MADE?

A A THE SAME DAY; IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TERMINATION OF THE MEETING.

Q GO ON.

A PARSONS STATED: "WE ARE SORELY IN NEED OF FUNDS WHEREWITH TO PUBLISH THE ALARM AND I THINK AS MANY OF YOU WHO ARE ABLE OUGHT TO GIVE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN, AS OUR PAPER IS A MOST POWERFUL WEAPON AND THROUGH THAT, IT IS ONLY THROUGH THE PAPER THAT WE CAN HOPE TO REACH THE MASSES.

Q WELL, GO ON AS TO THE OTHERS, OR ANYTHING FURTHER SAID BY PARSONS.

A A STRANGER PRESENT GAVE A LECTURE HE INTRODUCED CHRISTIANITY. SPIES STOOD UP AND SAID; "WE DON'T WANT NO CHRISTIANITY HERE IN OUR MEETINGS AT ALL. WE HAVE TOLD YOU SO BEFORE." THAT WAS THE SUBSTANCE.

Q DID FIELDEN MAKE ANY SPEECH THERE THAT NIGHT?

A FIELDEN MADE NO SPEECH ON THAT OCCASION.

Q WHAT WAS DONE OR SAID THERE IN REFERENCE TO THE ALARM?

A ON THE 4TH OF MARCH?

Q YES SIR.

A I HAVE ALREADY STATED WHAT PARSONS SAID.

Q WELL, WHAT WAS THE NEXT MEETING? THE NEXT YOU HAVE SPOKEN OF; YOU HAVE MENTIONED ALL THE SPEAKERS. YOU SAY FIELDEN MADE NO SPEECH THAT NIGHT?

A NO SIR, NOT IN THAT ONE.

Q WHAT IS THE NEXT MEETING IN WHICH SPEECHES WERE MADE?

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON THE 22ND OF MARCH.

Q WELL, ANY SPEECHES MADE BY THE DEFENDANTS, ANY OF THEM?

A BY DEFENDANT SPIES. PREVIOUSLY A MAN NAMED BISHOP INTRODUCED A RESOLUTION OF SYMPATHY FOR---

MR. FOSTER: WHAT IS THAT?

A A MAN NAMED BISHOP WHO WAS PRESENT AT THAT MEETING INTRODUCED A RESOLUTION OF SYMPATHY FOR A GIRL NAMED SORREL. THE GIRL IN QUESTION BISHOP STATED HAD BEEN ASSAULTED BY A MASTER; THE GIRL HAD APPLIED FOR A WARRANT WHICH HAD BEEN REFUSED HER ON ACCOUNT OF THE HIGH SOCIAL STANDING OF HERE MASTER.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT DID SPIES SAY IN REGARD TO THAT?

A SPIES SAID; "WHAT WAS THE USE OF PASSING RESOLUTIONS? WE MUST ACT AND REVENGE THE GIRL; HERE IS A FINE OPPORTUNITY."

THE COURT: NOW REPEAT THAT. THE NOISE DROWNED YOUR VOICE.

A "WHAT IS THE USE OF PASSING RESOLUTIONS; WE WANT TO REVENGE THE GIRL. NOW THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SOME OF OUR YOUNG MEN, TO GO AND SHOOT WIGHT." THAT WAS THE MAN WHOM THIS YOUNG GIRL SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASSAULTED BY."

MR. GRINNELL: WELL?

A THAT WAS ALL.

Q WAS THAT THE SUESTANCE OF THAT?

A YES SIR.

Q THESE REPORTS, DO THEY CONTAIN REFERENCES TO SPEECHES MADE BY OTHERS THERE AT THESE TIMES?

A THEY DO.

Q Q YOU ARE ONLY PICKING OUT AS I ASK YOU THE NAMES OF THE DEFENDANTS WHO MADE SPEECHES?

A YES.

Q THEY ALL CONTAIN SPEECHES BY OTHERS?

A THEY DO.

Q GO ON TO THE NEXT MEETING?

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON MARCH 29TH.

Q WHERE WAS THAT MEETING?

A THE SAME PLACE, GREIF'S HALL, 54 WEST LAKE STREET.

Q WHAT WAS THE DATE?

A THE 29TH OF MARCH, I885.

Q YES. WHO SPOKE THERE?

MR. BLACK: WILL YOU ALLOW ME A QUESTION. IN WHAT PART OF THE BUILDING WERE THESE MEETINGS REGULARLY HELD?

A ON THE THIRD FLOOR OF THE BUILDING.

MR. BLACK: NOW, HEREAFTER, IF ANY OF THE MEETINGS WERE HELD ON ANY OTHER LOCATION, I WISH YOU WOULD MENTION IT AS YOU COME TO IT; IT WOULD SAVE SOME LABOR ON CROSS EXAMINTATION. IF YOU DO NOT SAY ANY THING WE WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THEY WERE ALL HELD AT THAT PLACE.

MR. GRINNELL: WHEN YOU SPEAK OF GREIF'S HALL---UNLESS HE MAKES SOME MODIFICATION IT IS ALWAYS ON THE THIRD FLOOR.

THE WITNESS: THE DEFENDANT FIELDEN SPOKE AT THAT MEETING HE SAID A FEW EXPLOSIONS IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO WOULD HELP THE CAUSE CONSIDERABLY; THERE IS THE NEW BOARD OF TRADE, A ROOST OF THIEVES AND ROBBERS; WE OUGHT TO COMMENCE BY BLOWING THAT UP."

Q OTHERS MAKE SPEECHES AT THAT MEETING?

A NONE OF THE OTHERS.

Q NONE OF THE OTHER DEFENDANTS. OTHER SPEECHES WERE MADE?

A OTHERS, YES.

Q WELL, WHAT IS THE NEXT MEETING THAT YOU HAVE REFERENCES TO?

A THE NEXT MEETING IS APRIL THE IST; THST IS AT GREIF'S HALL.

Q WHO WERE PRESENT AT THAT MEETING?

A SPIES, FIELDEN AND PARSONS, SPIES MADE A LENGHTY SPEECH ON THIS OCCASION. I CANNOT RECALL THE WHOLE OF IT, UNLESS I REFER TO MY REPORTS. THIS SPEECH WAS AS REGARDS THE ACTS OF CRUELTY COMMITTED BY THE POLICE IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO. HE SPOKE OF THE NUMBER OF ARRESTS THAT WERE MADE AND THE NUMBER OF CONVETIONS IN PROPORTION. HE ALSO REFEREED TO A CASE OF MARTHA SIEGEL, A GIRL WHO HAD PREFERRED A CHARGE OF ASSAULT AGAINST POLICE SERGEANT PATTEN OF THE WEST CHICAGO AVENUE STATION.

Q WELL, GIVE THE SPEECH AS NEAR AS YOU CAN. A POLICE OFFICER NAMED PATTEN?

A PATTEN; POLICE SERGEANT PATTEN OF THE WEST CHICAGO AVENUE STATION.

Q WELL, WHO ELSE SPOKE THERE?

A FIELDEN.

Q WHAT DID FIELDEN SAY?

A SPIES HAD SAID BEFORE THAT HE HAD ADVISED THE GIRL SIEGEL TO GET A PISTOL AND GO AND SHOOT THE POLICEMAN. FIELDEN STOOD UP AND SAID; "THAT IS WHAT SHE OUGHT TO DO",

Q WHO ELSE SPOKE THERE OF THE DEFENDANTS?

A NONE OF THE DEFENDANTS.

Q WELL, TAKE THE NEXT MEETING?

A THE NEXT MEETING AS ON APRIL THE 8TH.

Q I885?

A I885.

Q AT WHAT PLACE?

A 54 WEST LAKE STREET,; GREIF'S HALL.

Q LOOK THAT OVER?

A PARSONS MADE A LENGHTY SPEECH. HE REFERRED FREQUENTLY IN THE COURSE OF HIS ADDRESS TO THE STRIKE AT THE MC.CORMICK HARVESTER WORKS. HE SAID; "THERE IS BUT ONE OUT OF TWO THINGS FOR THE MEN TO DO; THEY MUST EITHER GO TO WORK AT THE WAGES OFFERED THEM OR ELSE STARVE. IN CONCLUDING HIS REMARKS HE REFERRED TO A STRIKE GOING ON AT LA SALLE, ILLIONOS. HE SAID; "TO-MORROW MORNING OR THE NEXT DAY THE AUTHORITIES HERE IN THE CITY WILL PROBABLY SEND A TRAIN LOAD OF POLICEMEN OR MILITIA TO LASALLE TO SHOOT DOWN THE WORKINGMEN THERE. NOW, THERE IS A WAY TO PREVENT THIS. ALL YOU HAVE GOT TO DO IS TO GET SOME SOAP AND PLACE IT ON THE RAILS AND THE TRAIN WILL BE UNABLE TO MOVE." FIELDEN ALSO SPOKE.

Q HOLD ON JUST A MOMENT. WAS ANYTHING SAID IN ADDITION TO THAT BY PARSONS. JUST REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION BY YOUR NOTES.

MR. SALOMON: I THINK BEFORE THE WITNESS TESTIFIES FROM THESE NOTES, YOUR HONOR, THAT COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENSE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SEE WHAT HE IS TESTIFYING FROM.

THE COURT: WELL, THAT MAY BE WHEN YOU CROSS EXAMINE.

MR. SALOMON: PERHAPS IT SHOULD BE ALLOWED AT THIS TIME.

MR. GRINNELL: WHEN YOU CROSS EXAMINE YOU SHALL HAVE THEM. THAT IS THE PROPER PLACE FOR THAT, I SHOULD JUDGE.

THE WITNESS: PARSONS SPOKE AT GREAT LENGHT OF THE CRIMES, AS HE TERMED IT, COMMITTED BY THE CAPITALISTS, AND UGRED ALL OF THOSE-

MR. FOSTER: SAID.

A SAID TO THOSE PRESENT THAT IT WAS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THEM

TO UNITE AND ORGANIZE, AS THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY THEY COULD FIGHT CAPITALISM.

MR. GRINNELL: IS THAT THE APRIL 8TH MEETING, 1885?

A YES.

Q HAVE YOU LOOKED OVER IN YOUR MINUTES AND NOTES THERE ALL THAT YOU HAVE DOWN AS HAVING BEEN SAID BY PARSONS IN REGARD TO THAT TRAIN?

A I HAVE ALREADY STATED ABOUT THE TRAIN.

Q VERY WELL, TELL ME WHO ELSE SPOKE THERE.

A FIELDEN.

Q NOW, WILL YOU STATE WHAT FIELDEN SAID?

A FIELDEN SAID; "IT IS A BLESSING THAT SOMETHING HAS BEEN DISCOVERED WHEREWITH THE WORKINGMEN CAN FIGHT THE POLICE AND THE MILITIA WITH THE GATLING GUNS."

Q IS THAT ALL OF THAT?

A THAT IS ALL.

Q DID HE OR DID PARSONS OR FIELDEN, EITHER OF THEM AT THAT MEETING SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE USE OF DYNAMITE?

A NOT AT THAT MEETING.

Q WHAT IS THE NEXT MEETING THAT YOU HAVE?

A THE NEXT MEETING IS APRIL 19TH. THAT IS ALSO HELD AT 54 LAKE STREET, GREIF'S HALL.

Q ALL RIGHT. WHO WERE PRESENT?

A I WISH TO CORRECT MY STATEMENT AS TO THE MEETING BEING HELD AT 54 LAKE STREET. IT WAS TO HAVE BEEN HELD THERE, BUT THE HALL WAS RENTED TO SOME OTHER PARTIES, AND THE MEETING WAS HELD AT 106 RANDOLPH STREET.

Q THAT IS THE MEETING OF WHAT, APRIL I2TH?

A APRIL I9TH. FIELDEN AND PARSONS WERE PRESENT. AT THIS MEETING PARSONS OFFERED A RESOLUTION --PARSONS PRESENTED A RESOLUTION OF SYMPATHY FOR LOUIS RIEL, AND THE HALF-BREDS IN THE NORTH WEST WHO WER IN REBELLION AGAINST THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT.

Q DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT WAS SAID? WHO SPOKE THERE BESIDES PARSONS?

A NEITHER FIELDEN NOR PARSONS SPOKE AT THE MEETING.

Q PARSONS PRESENTED RESOLUTIONS?

A PARSONS PRESENTED THE RESOLUTIONS.

Q VERY WELL, NONE OF THE OTHERS SPOKE THERE?

A NO SIR.

Q THERE WAS SPEAKING DONE THERE?

A THERE WAS SPEAKING, NUT NEITHER PARSONS NOR FIELDEN SPOKE.

Q VERY WEEL, WHAT IS THE NEXT MEETING?

A THE NEXT MEETING IS APRIL THE 22ND.

Q AT WHAT PLACE?

A AT 54 WEST LAKE STREET, GREIF'S HALL. REFERRING TO THE OPENING OF THE NEW BOARD OF TRADE BUILDING, PARSONS SAID; "WHAT A SPLENDID OPPORTUNITY THERE WILL BE NEXT TUESDAY NIGHT FOR SOME BOLD FELLOW TO MAKE THE CAPITALISTS TREMBLE, BY BLOWING UP THE BUILDING AND ALL THE THIEVES AND ROBERS THERE." AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE SPEECH HE STATED THAT THE WORKINGMEN OF CHICAGO WOULD FROM IN PROCESSION ON MARKET SQUARE ON TUESDAY EVENING NEXT, AND HE INVITED ALL THOSE PRESENT TO GET AS MANY OF THE FRIENDS AS THEY

COULD TO JOIN IN THE PROCESSION.

Q DID OTHERS SPEAK AT THAT MEETING BESIDES PARSONS, OTHER OF THE DEFENDANTS?

A FIELDEN SPOKE.

Q WHAT DID FIELDEN SAY?

A HE SAID: "I ALSO WISH TO INVITE AS MANY OF YOU AS CAN COME, AND AS MANY AS YOU CAN GET; GO AROUND TO THE LODGING HOUSES AND GET AS MANY OF THE TRAMPS YOU CAN FIND AND GET THEN TO COME ALONG AND JOIN IN THE PROCESSION; THE MORE WE ARE THE MERRIER." THAT WAS ALL SAID AT THAT MEETING.

Q THE NEXT MEETING?

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS APRIL THE 26TH. THAT WAS HELD AT GREIF'S HALL, 54 LAKE STREET.

Q WHO SPOKE THERE---THAT IS, WHICH, IF ANY, OF THE DEFENDANTS SPOKE THERE?

A THERE WAS PRESENT, PARSONS, FIELDEN AND SPIES. PARSONS SAID: "I WISH YOU ALL TO CONSIDER THE MISERY OF THE WORKING CLASSES, AND THE CAUSE OF ALL THE MISERY IS THESE INSTITUTIONS TERMED GOVERNMENT; I LIVED ON SNOWBALLS ALL LAST WINTER, BUT, BY GOD, I WILL, NOT DO IT THIS WINTER." NONE OF THE OTHER DEFENDANTS SPOKE AT THAT MEETING.

Q WHICH WAS THE NEXT MEETING THAT YOU HAVE WHICH ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS ATTENDED?

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON APRIL 30TH.

Q HAVEN'T YOU GOT APRIL 28TH MEETING?

A NO, IT IS APRIL 30TH.

Q ALL RIGHT.

A ON MARKET SQUARE.

Q YES SIR. I HAVE THAT AS APRIL 28TH.

A IT IS THE 30TH. PARSONS AND FIELDEN WERE PRESENT. PARSONS SAID: "WE HAVE ASSMBLED HERE TO DETERMINE IN WHICH WAY BEST TO CELEBRATE THE DEDICATION OF THE NEW BOARD OF TRADE BUILDING, AND TO GIVE THE WORKINGMEN OF CHICAGO A CHANCE TO STATE THEIR VIEWS ON THE MATTER." FIELDEN THEN SAID; "I WANT ALL THE WORKINGMEN OF CHICAGO, THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD IN GENERAL, TO ARM THEMSELVES AND SWEEP THE CAPITALISTS OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH".

PARSONS THEN SAID; "EVERY WORKINGMAN IN CHICAGO MUST SAVE A LITTLE OF HIS WAGES EVERY WEEK UNTIL HE HAS ENOUGH TO BUY A COLT REVOLVER AND A WINCHESTER RIFLE, FOR THE ONLY WAY THAT WORKING PEOPLE CAN GET THEIR RIGHTS IS AT THE POINT OF THE BAYONET. WE WANT YOU TO FORM A PROCESSION NOW AND WE WILL MARCH TO THE BOARD OF TRADE: WE WILL HALT THERE AND WHILE THE BAND IS PLAYING WE WILL SING THE MARSELLISE.

Q MR. JOHNSON, DID YOU MARCH IN THE PROCESSION, TOO?

A I DID.

Q WHERE WERE YOU IN THE LINE OF MARCH?

A I WAS IN THE CENTER OF THE PROCESSION.

Q ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS MARCHING WITH YOU?

A NOT WITH ME, BUT THEY WERE IN THE PROCESSION.

Q WHICH OF THEM WERE IN THE PROCESSION?

A FIELDEN, SPIES, PARSONS AND NEEBE.

Q GO ON TO THE NEXT MEETING?

A SOMETHING OCCURRED ON MAY 30TH.

Q VERY WELL. GIVE ME AN ACCOUNT OF THAT. THAT WAS DECORATION DAY IN 1885?

A YES SIR. I WAS STANDING AT THE CORNER OF WASHINGTON AND FIFTH AVENUE; THE DEFENDANT SPIES WAS ALSO THERE. I WAS STANDING CLOSE BEHIND HIM. HE WAS IN CONVERSATION WITH TWO OTHER MEN, WHO I DO NOT KNOW, WHEN THE POLICE PASSED BY.

Q THAT IS, IN THE PROCESSION IN MAY, ON DECORATION BAY?

A ON DECORATION DAY. ON THE 30TH OF MAY, 1885, SPIES SAID: "A HALF DOZEN DYNAMITE BOMBS WOULD SOON SCATTER THEM ALL. A LITTE LATER A GENTLEMAN WHO WAS STANDING NEAR REMARKED UPON THE FINE APPEARANCE OF THE ILLINOIS NATIONAL GUARDS WHO WAS THEN PASSING SPIES THEN SAID: "THEY ARE ONLY BOYS AND WOULD BE NO USE IN CASE OF A RIOT. FIFTY DETERMINED MEN WOULD SOON DISARM THEM ALL."' THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON THE LAKE FRONT ON MAY THE 31ST. THERE WAS PRESENT PARSONS AND FIELDEN. FIELDEN SAID: "IT IS ONLY BY STRENGHT OR FORCE THAT YOU CAN OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT. PARSONS ALSO MADE A SPEECH. I HAVE NO REPORT OF WHAT HE SAID.

Q AND OTHERS SPOKE AT THAT MEETING?

A OTHERS SPOKE AT THAT MEETING, YES.

Q GO ON.

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS JUNE 7TH, 1885 AT OGDEN'S GROVE. THERE WAS PRESENT FLELDEN, PARSONS, SPIES AND SCHWAB; A PICNIC WAS BEING HELD AT THE TIME. FIELDEN SPOKE. HE SAID:" I WANT ALL TO ORGANIZE; EVERY WORKINGMAN IN CHICAGO OUGHT TO BELONG TO OUR ORGANIZATION; IT IS OF NO USE TO GO AND BEG OF OUR MASTERS TO GIVE

US MORE WAGES OR BETTER TIMES; WHEN I SAY ORGANIZE I MEAN FOR YOU TO USE FORCE, IT IS OF NO USE FOR THE WORKING PEOPLE TO HOPE TO GAIN ANYTHING BY MEANS OF THE ORDINARY WEAPON; EVERY ONE OF YOU MUST LEARN THE USE OF DYNAMITE, FOR THAT IS THE POWER WITH WHICH WE HOPE TO GAIN OUR RIGHTS." SCHWAB ALSO SPOKE AT THAT MEETING IN GERMAN.

Q DO YOU UNDERSTAND GERMAN?

A I DO NOT.

MR. ZEISLER: THAT WAS THE PICNIC?

A IT WAS A PICNIC, YES. THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON AUGUST 19; IT WAS HELD ST GREIF'S HALL, 54 WEST LAKE STREET. PARSONS AND FIELDEN WERE PRESENT.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT IS THE DATE OF THAT, MR. JOHNSON?

A THAT IS AUGUST 19TH, 1885. PARSONS SPOKE REFERRING TO THE LATE STRIKE, STREET CAR EMPLOYES. HE SAID: "IF BUT ONE SHOT HAD BEEN FIRED AND BONFIELD HAD HAPPENED TO BE SHOT THE WHOLE CITY WOULD HAVE BEEN DELUGED IN BLOOD, AND THE SOCIAL REVOLUTION WOULD HAVE BEEN INAUGURATED."

Q THAT IS IN REFERENCE TO THE CAR STRIKE RIOT OF JULY 1ST, 1885?

A REFERRING TO THE STREET CAR RIOTS, YES. FIELDEN DID NOT SPEAK AT THAT MEETING. THE NEXT METTING WAS AUGUST AT GREIF'S HALL.

Q DO YOU KNOW AT THESE DIFFERENT METTINGS A FELLOW BY THE NAME OF BODENDECKER--DID HE SPEAK FREQUENTLY?

A YES--NOT FREQUENTLY, OCCASIONALLY.

Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE IS?

A I DO NOT.

MR. ZEISLER: THAT IS NOT MATERIAL.

MR. GRINNELL: GO ON AND STATE WHAT OCCURRED AT THAT MEETING. WHO SPOKE OF THE DEFENDANTS?

A THIS WAS A MEETING OF THE ARMED SECTION OF THE AMERICAN GROUP.

Q NOW, I WANT THE HISTORY OF THAT. TELL US THE HISTORY OF THAT MEETING. GIVE US THAT MEETING IN FULL, IN DETAIL.

MR. BLACK: WHAT IS THE DATE OF THAT MEETING?

A THE 24TH OF AUGUST, 1885.

Q AND THE PLACE?

A 54 WEST LAKE STREET.

Q AND WHO OF THE DEFENDANTS WERE PRESENT?

A FIELDEN AND PARSONS.

MR. GRINNELL: THIS IS OF AUGUST 24, YOU SAY?

A AUGUST 24.

Q AT GREIF'S HALL, 54 WEST LAKE STREET?

A YES SIR.

Q VERY WELL. THERE WERE SOME TWENTY OR TWENTY THREE MEN PRESENT ON THIS OCCASION AND TWO WOMEN.

Q IN THE HALL?

A IN THE HALL.

Q WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK WAS THAT, MR. JOHNSON?

A IT WAS MONDAY.

Q MONDAY NIGHT?

A MONDAY NIGHT.

Q NAME WHO WERE PRESENT AS NEAR AS YOU CAN, AS MANY AS YOU CAN?

A BESIDES THE TWO DEFENDANTS ALREADY NAMED, PARSONS AND FIELDEN, THERE WERE PRESENT WALTERS, BODENDECKER, BOYD AND LARSON.

Q REFER TO YOUR MEMORANDUM?

A PARKER AND FRANKLIN.

Q SNYDER----GOT SNYDER'S NAME IN YOUR LIST?

A AND SNYDER, YES.

Q NOW, YOU MAY STATE WHAT OCCURRED THERE?

A AFTER HAVING BEEN THERE A SHORT TIME A MAN ARMED WITH A LONG CAVALRY SWORD, AND DRESSED IN A BLUE BLOUSE, WEARING A SLOUCH HAT CAME INTO THE ROOM; HE ORDERED ALL THOSE PRESENT TO FALL IN; HE THEN CALLED OFF CERTAIN NAMES, AND ALL THOSE PRESENT ANSWERED TO THE NAMES. HE THEN INQUIRED WHETHER THERE WERE ANY NEW MEMBERS WHO WISHED TO JOIN THE MILITARY COMPANY. SOME ONE REPLIED THAT THERE WAS. HE THEN SAID; "WHOEVER WANTS TO JOIN, STEP TO THE FRONT." MYSELF AND TWO OTHERS STEPPED TO THE FRONT. WE WERE ASKED SEPARATELY TO GIVE OUR NAMES. I GIVE MY NAME WHICH WAS PUT DOWN IN A BOOK, AND I WAS THEN TOLD THAT MY NUMBER WAS 16. PREVIOUS TO MY NAME BEING PUT DOWN IN THE BOOK THE MAN TO WHOM I WAS SPEAKING ASKED WHETHER THERE WAS ANY ONE PRESENT WHO KNEW ME, OR WHETHER ANY ONE COULD VOUCH FOR ME BEING A TRUE MAN; THE DEFENDANT PARSONS AND A MAN NAMED BODENDECKER SPOKE UP AND SAID THAT THEY WOULD VOUCH FOR ME. THE OTHER TWO WERE ASKED THEIR NAMES IN TURNS; AS THEY WERE PROPERLY VOUCHED FOR IN A SIMILAR MANNER THEIR NAMES WERE ENTERED IN A BOOK AND THEY WERE GIVEN NUMBERS. THE MAN WHO I HAVE PREVIOUSLY SPOKEN OF WHO CAME INTO THE ROOM ARMED WITH A SWORD THEN INQUIRED OF TWO OTHER MEN

WHO WERE IN THE ROOM WHETHER THEY WERE MEMBERS OF THE AMERICAN GROUP; THEY BOTH SAID THEY WERE AND HE ASKED TO SEE THEIR CARDS AND AS THEY WERE UNABLE TO PRDUCE THEIR CARDS HE TOLD THEM TO LEAVE THE ROOM. THERE WERE ALSO TWO OTHERS EXPELLED THE ROOM, THE DOORS WERE CLOSED AND THE REMAINDER WAS ASKED TO FALL IN LINE. AND WE WERE THEN DRILLED FOR ABOUT HALF AN HOUR OR THREE QUARTERS, PUT THROUGH THE REGULAR MANUAL DRILL, MARCHING, COUNTER-MARCHING, TURNING, FORMING FOURS AND WHEELING AND SO FORTH.

Q WHO DRILLED YOU?

A THE MAN THAT I HAVE SPOKEN OF WHO CAM IN ARMED WITH A SWORD. HE WAS EVIDENTLY A GERMAN. I DID NOT ASCERTAIN HIS NAME. AT THE EXPIRATION OF THAT TIME THE DRILLING INSTRUCTOR STATED THAT HE WOULD NOW INTRODUCE SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF THE FIRST COMPANY OF THE GERMAN ORGANIZATION. HE WENT OUTSIDE AND IN A FEW MINUTES HE RETURNED ACCOMPANIED WITH TEN OTHER MEN DRESSED AS HE HIMSELF WAS, AND EACH ONE ARMED WITH A SPRINGFIELD RIFLE. WHEN THEY ALL GOT INTO THE ROOM HE PLACED THEM IN A LINE IN FRONT OF US AND INTRODUCED THEM AS MEMBERS OF THE FIRST COMPANY OF THE LEHR AND WEHR VEREIN, AND SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO DRILL THEN A LITTLE WHILE TO LET US SEE HOW FAR THEY HAD GOT WITH THEIR DRILL. HE PROCEEDED TO DRILL THEM FOR ABOUT TEN MINUTES; PUT THEM THROUGH THE REGULAR MUSKETRY DRILL. AT THE END OF THAT TIME A MAN WHOSE NAME I DO NOT KNOW--HE IS EMPLOYED FOR THE PROPIETKOR OF THE SALOON 54 WEST LAKE STREET.

Q HE WAS THERE?

A YES, HE WAS THERE HE CAME INTO THE ROOM WITH TWO TIN BOXES WHICH HE PLACED ON THE TABLE AT THE SOUTH END OF THE ROOM.

THE DRILL INSTRUCTOR THEN ASKED ALL THOSE PRESENT TO STEP UP AND EXAMINE THE TWO TIN BOXES, AS THEY WERE THE LATEST IMPROVED DYNAMITE BOMBS. I STEPPED TO THE FRONT WITH THE OTHERS AND EXAMINED THE TWO TINS. THEY WERE---THEY HAD THE APPEARANCE--

Q JUST DESCRIBE THEM AS NEAR AS YOU CAN, MR. JOHNSON, NOW.

A THEY WERE ABOUT THE SIZE AND HAD THE APPEARANCE OF ORDINARY PRESERVE FRUIT CANS. THE TOP PART UNSCREWED AND IN THE INSIDE OF THE CANS WERE FILLED WITH A LIGHT BROWN MIXTURE. THERE WAS ALSO A SMALL GLASS TUBE INSERTED IN THE CENTER OF THE CAN. THE TUBE WAS IN CONNECTION WITH THE SCREW AND IT WAS EXPLAINED WHERE THE CAN WAS THROWN AGAINST ANY HARD SUBSTANCE IT WOULD EXPLODE.

Q WHAT WAS THE COLOR? WAS THAT MIXTURE A LIQUID?

A INSIDE OF THE GLASS TUBE WAS A LIQUID.

Q THAT AROUND IT---WAS THERE ANYTHING AROUND THAT GLASS TUBE?

A YES SIR. IT WAS A BROWNISH MIXTURE.

Q WAS THAT A LIQUID?

A NO SIR.

Q THAT WAS NOT?

A IT WAS NOT.

Q WHAT WAS THE APPEARANCE OF IT----LOOK LIKE SAND OR SAWDUST OR WHAT?

A WELL, I SHOULD SAY IT LOOKED MORE LIKE FINE SAWDUST.

Q DID YOU FEEL OF IT?

A I DID NOT.

Q WAS BODENDECKER THERE ALL THAT TIME?

A BODENDECKER WAS THERE.

Q WELL, WHAT DID YOU DO? DID YOU ELECT YOUR OFFICERS OF YOUR COMPANY THAT NIGHT?

A THE DRILL INSTRUCTOR FIRST TOLD EVERYBODY PRESENT THAT THEY OUGHT TO BE VERY CAREFUL AS TO WHO WE SELECTED AS TO NEW MEMBERS OF THE COMPANY, AS UNLESS WE WERE VERY CAREFUL THERE WAS NO TELLING WHO MIGHT GET INTO THEIR MIDST, OUR MIDST, THE NEXT PROCEEDING OF THE EVENING WAS TO SELECT OFFICERS; A MAN NAMED WALTERS WAS CHOSEN AS CAPTAIN AND THE DEFENDANT PARSONS WAS CHOSEN FOR LIEUTENANT.

MR. FOSTER: THIS WAS THE NEXT NIGHT?

A NO SIR, THAT WAS THE SAME NIGHT. SOME DISCUSSION AROSE AS TO WHAT THE COMPANY SHOULD BE CALLED. IT WAS DECIDED EVENTUALLY THAT WE SHOULD BE CALLED THE INTERNATIONAL RIFLES. THE DRILL INSTRUCTOR THEN SUFGESTED THAT WE OUGHT TO CHOOSE SOME OTHER HALL AS WE WERE NOT QUITE SAFE THERE. HE ADDED: "WE HAVE A FINE PLACE AT 636 MILWAUKEE AVENUE; WE HAVE A SHOOTING RANGE IN THE BASEMENT WHERE WE PRACTICE SHOOTING REGULARLY," PARSONS THEN INQUIRED AS TO WHETHER IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR US TO RENT THE SAME PLACE. THE DRILL INSTRUCTOR THEN INFORMED HIM THAT HE DID NOT KNOW. THE QUESTION OF RENTING ANOTHER HALL WAS FINALLY PUT OFF UNTIL SOME OTHER TIME AND OUR OTHER MEETING WAS THEN FIXED UNTIL THE FOLLOWING MONDAY.

MR. ZEISLER: MEETING OF THE GROUP OR THE MEETING OF THE ARMED SECTION?

A THE MEETING OF THE ARMED SECTION OF THE AMERICAN GROUP.

MR. GRINNELL: WHO DRILLED IN YOUR COMPANY THAT NIGHT?

A THE GERMAN, BEFORE SPOKEN OF.

Q WELL, HE DRILLED YOU, BUT WHO WERE IN THE COMPANY DRILLING? WAS PARSONS THERE AND FIELDEN DRILLING?

A PARSONS AND FIELDEN.

Q THEY JOINED THE COMPANY ALSO THAT NIGHT?

A NO. I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAD JOINED PREVIOUSLY, I WAS NOT THERE ON THE FIRST NIGHT.

Q THEY WERE MADE---ONE OF THEM WAS MADE AN OFFICER THAT NIGHT?

A YES.

Q A LIEUTENANT WELL, GO ON TO THE NEXT MEETING, IF YOU HAVE GOT THROUGH WITH THAT ONE, MR. JOHNSON.

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON THE FOLLOWING MONDAY.

Q THAT WILL BE WHAT DAY?

A ON THE 31ST OF AUGUST, AT THE SAME PLACE. PARSONS AND FIELDEN WERE PRESENT AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS.

MR. FOSTER: THIS IS A MEETING OF THE ARMED SECTION YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW?

A YES SIR.

Q WHAT IS THE DATE OF THAT?

A THE 31ST OF AUGUST.

MR. GRINNELL: WHERE DID THAT MEET?

A AT 54 WEST LAKE STREET, GREIF'S HALL.

Q WHO WAS THERE?

A FIE LDEN AND PARSONS AND OTHERS.

Q AND YOU WERE THERE?

A AND MYSELF.

Q GO ON.

A THE CAPTAIN, WALTERS, DRILLED US FOR ABOUT ONE HOUR AND A HALF. AFTERWARDS A CONSULTATION WAS HELD AMONG ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE COMPANY AS TO THE BEST WAY OF PROCURING ARMS. SOME ONE SUGGESTED THAT EACH MEMBER SHOULD PAY SO MUCH A WEEK UNTIL S SUFFICIENT AMOUNT HAD BEEN RAISED WHEREWITH TO PURCHASE A RIFLE FOR EACH MEMBER OF THE COMPANY. THE DEFENDANT PARSONS THEN MADE A SUGGESTION ---HE SAID AS FOLLOWS: "LOOK HERE, BOYS, WHY CAN'T WE MAKE A RAID SOME NIGHT ON THE MILITARY ARMORY? THERE ARE ONLY TWO OR THREE MEN ON GUARD THERE AND IT IS EASILY DONE. THIS SUGGESTION SEEMED TO BE FAVORED BY THE OTHER MEMBERS, BUT SOME MORE DISCUSSION TOOK PLACE AND IT WAS FINALLY DECIDED TO PUT THIS MATTER OF UNTIL THE NIGHTS GOT A LITTLE BIT LONGER.

MR. BLACK: WHICH MATTER WAS PUT OFF, MR. JOHNSON? THE RAID ON THE ARMORY OR WHAT?

A THE RAID ON THE ARMORY.

Q THE RAID ON THE ARMORY---THAT WAS POSTPONED?

A YES SIR. THE NEXT MEETING WAS HELD AT 54 WEST LAKE STREET ON THE END OF SEPTEMBER, 1885. FIELDEN MADE A SPEECH. HE SAID: IT IS USELESS FOR YOU TO SUPPOSE THAT YOU CAN EVER OBTAIN ANYTHING IN ANY OTHER WAY THAN BY FORCE. YOU MUST ARM YOURSELVES AND PREPARE FOR THE COMING REVOLUTION.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT WAS THAT, A MEETING OF THE ARMED SECTIONS?

A N0 SIR.

Q BUT, WAS THAT ONE OF THE ORDINARY 54 WEST LAKE STREET MEETINGS?

A THAT WAS ONE OF THE ORDINARY MEETINGS. THAT WAS ALL SAID ON THAT OCCASION. THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON OCTOBER 11TH, AT THE 12TH STREET TURNER HALL. SPIES AND FIELDEN WERE PRESENT AND FIELDEN SAID: "THE EIGHT HOUR LAW WILL BE OF NO BEBEFIT TO THE WORKINGMEN; YOU MUST ALL ORGANIZE AND USE FORCE; YOU MUST CRUSH OUT THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT, AS BY FORCE IS THE ONLY WAY IN WHICH YOU CAN BETTER YOUR PRESENT CONDITION." THERE WERE OTHER SPEAKERS AT THE SAME MEETING. I LEFT BEFORE THE MEETING HAD TERMINATED

Q WITH WHOM/

A FIELDEN.

Q HAD ANY RESOLUTIONS BEEN INTRODUCED WHEN YOU LEFT?

A NO.

Q GO ON.

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON THE 20TH OF DECEMBER AT 12TH STREET TURNER HALL.

MR. BLACK: THAT IS FROM THE 2ND OF SEPTEMBER TO THE 20TH OF DECEMBER?

A THE 20TH OF DECEMBER. FIELDEN WAS PRESENT. HE SAID: "ALL THE CROWNED HEADS OF EUROPE ARE TREMBLING AT THE VERY NAME OF SOCIALISM, AND I HOPE SOON TO SEE A FEW LISKAS IN THE UNITED STATES

Q MR. FOSTER: A FEW WHAT?

A LISKAS.

MR. GRINNELL: THE MAN THAT MURDERED THE CHIEF-OF-POLICE OF FRANKFURT AND WAS HANGED FOR IT, TOO. HE WILL GIVE YOU ALL OF

OF THAT MEETING.

THE WITNESS: |CONTINUING| TO PUT OUT OF THE WAY A FEW OF THE TOOLS OF CAPITAL; THE EXECUTION OF RIEL IN THE NORTHWEST WAS A DOWN RIGHT MURDER." THAT IS ALL.

Q WHAT MEETING WAS THAT?

A THAT WAS ON THE 20TH OF DECEMBER LAST.

Q AT WHAT PLACE?

A AT 12TH STREET TURNER HALL.

Q WAS THAT AN OPEN MEETING?

A IT WAS, AS FAR AS I SAW. I SAW NO ONE REFUSED ADMITTANCE.

Q HOW ABOUT THESE OTHER MEETING THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED BESIDES THE ARMED SECTIONS, THE GROUP MEETINGS?

A ASIDE FROM THE MEETING OF THE ARMED SECTION I SHOULD SAY THAT THEY WERE PUBLIC. I NEVER SAW ANYONE REFUSED ADMISSION.

Q WELL, WERE ANY PRECAUTIONS TAKEN AS TO INSPECTION OF INDIVIDUALS WHO DID COME?

A THE PRECAUTION WAS TAKEN IN THIS WAY---A MEMBER OF THE GROUP WAS GENERALLY STATIONED AT THE DOOR, AND AS EACH PERSON ENTERED THE THE HALL HE WAS CLOSELY SCRUTINIZED BY SAID MEMBER.

MR. BLACK: WAS THAT THE PRECAUTION AT THE ARMED SECTION, OR WAS THAT THE PRECAUTION AT ALL THESE MEETINGS?

A I AM SPEAKING OF THE MEETINGS OUTSIDE OF THE MEETINGS OF THE ARMED SECTION.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT IS THE NEXT MEETING AFTER DECEMBER 20?

A THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON DECEMBER 30.

Q WHERE---WHAT PLACE?

A AT 106 RANDOLPH STREET.

Q WELL, WHO SPOKE THERE?

A FIELDEN. AT THIS MEETING A STRANGER ASKED A QUESTION AND FIELDEN REPLIED TO THE QUESTION.

Q DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE QUESTION WAS.?

A THE QUESTION WAS: "WOULD THE DESCRUCTION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY INSURE UNIVERSAL CO-OPERATION?" FIELDEN REPLIED: "I OR NOBODY ELSE CAN TELL WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW, BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS; IF PRIVATE PROPERTY WAS DONE AWAY WITH IT WOULD INSURE A BETTER STATE OF THINGS GENERALLY, AND WE ARE TRYING ALL WE CAN TO TEACH THE PEOPLE THE BEST WAY IN WHICH TO BRING THIS CHANGE.

Q WHO WAS PRESENT AT THAT MEETING?

A FIELDEN ONLY OF THE DEFENDANTS.

MR. FOSTER: WHAT WAS THE LAST PART OF THAT? I DID NOT GET IT.

A WE ARE DOING ALL WE CAN TO TEACH THE PEOPLE HOW BEST TO BRING ABOUT THIS CHANGE," THE NEXT MEETING WAS ON JANUARY 3RD, THIS YEAR, AT 12TH STREET TURNER HALL. FIELDEN AND SCHWAB WERE WERE PRESENT. FIELDEN IN REFERRING TO THE TROUBLE IN IRELAND SAID: "IF EVERY IRISHMAN WOULD BECOME A SOCIALIST HE WOULD HAVE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO SECURE HOME RULE FOR IRELAND. I WANT ALL IRISHMEN TO DESTROY ALL THE PROPERTY THEY CAN LAY THEIR HANDS ON." HE ALSO REFERRED TO OTHER MATTERS.

MR. GRINNELL: IS THAT THE JANUARY 3RD MEETING?

A JANUARY 3RD, YES.

Q WHAT IS THE NEXT? HAVE YOU SAID ALL THAT FIELDEN SAID AT THAT TIME?

A NO SIR. I SAID HE REFERRED TO SOMETHING ELSE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT IS PROPER FOR ME TO STATE IT OR NOT.

Q ANYTHING HE SAID?

A WHAT HE SAID HAD REFERENCE TO PINKERTON'S DETECTIVE AGENCY.

Q WHAT WAS IT HE SAID. LET US HAVE WHAT HE DID SAY AND THEN WE WILL KNOW WHETHER, IT IS PROPER OR PERTINENT. IT WAS IN THAT MEETING---WHATEVER HE SAID ABOUT ANYBODY?

A YES; IT WAS IN THAT MEETING. HE SAID PINKERTON'S DETECTIVES ARE A LOT OF COLD BLOODED MURDERERS, AND THE WORST ENEMIES THE WORKINGMAN HAS, AND THEY ARE ALL IN THE PAY OF THE CAPITALISTS.

Q IS THAT ALL WHAT WAS SAID? WAS THAT ONE OF THOSE OPEN ORDINARY MEETINGS?

A IT WAS.

Q WHAT OTHER MEETING HAVE YOU NOW?

A SCHWAB ALSO ADDRESSED THIS MEETING GERMAN. DURING HIS SPEECH HE WAS FREQUENTLY APPLAUDED. THE NEXT MEETING I ATTENDED WAS ON JANUARY 14 AT 106 RANDOLPH STREET.

Q JANUARY OF THIS YEAR. WHAT WAS SAID AT THAT MEETING?

A BEFORE THE MEETING COMMENCED THE DEFENDANT FIELDEN AND SPIES HAD A CONVERSATION WHICH I OVERHEARD.

Q YES SIR; WILL YOU STATE THAT. WHERE WAS THAT?

A THAT WAS HELD IN THE HALL NEAR THE DOOR.

Q AT 106 RANDOLPH?

A 106 RANDOLPH.

Q YOU MAY STATE WHAT YOU HEARD?

A SPIES SAID TO FIELDEN: "DON'T SAY VERY MUCH ABOUT THAT ARTICLE IN THE DAILY NEWS; YOU SIMPLY NEED TO STATE THAT A REPORTER OF THE DAILY NEWS HAD AN INTERVIEW WITH ME SOME DAYS AGO, BUT THAT MOST OF THE STATEMENTS IN THE PAPER ARE LIES.

Q HOW WAS THAT CONVERSATION CARRIED ON?

A IT WAS CARRIED ON QUIETLY, AND WAS NOT MEANT FOR ANYBODY ELSE'S EARS EVIDENTLY.

MR. BLACK: I THINK I WILL NOW MOVE THAT THAT SECTION OF THE ANSWER: "WAS NOT MEANT," AND SO FORTH, BE STRICKEN OUT.

THE COURT: YES: THAT IS NOT COMPETENT, BUT THE TONE OF VOICE IN WHICH IT WAS CARRIED ON THE WITNESS COULD TELL.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT WAS THE TONE OF VOICE THAT THE CONVERSATION WAS CARRIED ON IN?

A IN WHISPERS. SPIES FURTHER SAID: YOU MUST BE CAREFUL IN YOUR REMARKS. WE DON'T KNOW WHO MIGHT BE AMONG US TO-NIGHT." SPIES THEN WENT AWAY AND THE MEETING WAS CALLED TO ORDER.

Q WHO SPOKE?

A FIELDEN.

Q WELL, LET US HAVE WHAT HE SAID.

A HE MADE A LONG STATEMENT AS TO COMMENTING ON THE ARTICLE WHICH HAD APPEARED IN THE DAILY NEWS; HE SAID: "ALL THE STATEMENTS OR MOST OF THE STATEMENTS ARE LIES. MR. SPIES DID HAVE AN INTERVIEW

WITH A REPORTER SOME DAYS AGO, BUT MOST OF THE ASSERTIONS BROUGHT FORTH IN THE PAPER ARE NOT TRUE." HE FURTHER SAID: "AS REGARDS THE DYNAMITE BOMBS IT IS QUITE TRUE WE HAVE LOTS OF EXPLOSIVES AND DYNAMITE IN OUR POSSESSION, AND WE WILL NOT HESITATE TO USE IT WHEN THE PROPER TIME COMES. WE CARE NOTHING EITHER FOR THE MILITARY OR THE POLICE. ALL OF THESE ARE IN THE PAY OF THE CAPITALISTS." HE FUTHER STATED: "EVEN THE REGULAR ARMY, MOST OF THE SOLDIERS ARE ALL IN SYMPATHY WITH US, AND MOST OF THEN HAD BEEN DRIVEN TO ENLISTMENT---BEEN DRIVEN TO ENLIST.

THE COURT: DRIVEN'?

A "MOST OF THEM WERE DRIVEN TO ENLIST, OR ENLISTMENT; I HAVE EVEN HAD A LETTER FROM A FRIEND OUT WEST WHO TOLD ME HE HAD SEEN A SOLDIER ON THE FRONTIER READING A COPY OF THE ALARM." OTHERS THEN MADE SPEECHES. AFTERWARDS FIELDEN AGAIN SPOKE AT THE SAME MEETING IN REPLY TO A QUESTION AS TO WHAT WAS THE SOCIALISTS' IDEA ABOUT THE EIGHT HOUR MOVEMENT. FIELDEN SAID: "WE DO NOT OBJECT TO IT, BUT WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT. AS TO WHETHER A MAN WORKS EIGHT HOURS A DAY OR TEN HOURS A DAY HE IS STILL A SLAVE. WE PROPOSE TO ABOLISH SLAVERY ALLTOGETHER." THAT IS ALL OF THAT MEETING. FIELDEN SAID---

MR. FOSTER: WHERE?

A ON THE 24TH OF JANUARY AT A MEETING HELD AT 106 RANDOLPH STREET.

MR. BLACK: EAST OR WEST RANDOLPH STREET?

A EAST RANDOLPH.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT 106 EAST RANDOLPH?

A 106 EAST RANDOLPH.

Q YOUNG'S HALL?

A YES, I BELIEVE IT IS YOUNG'S HALL.

MR. BLACK: WHENEVER YOU HAVE REFERRED TO MEETINGS AT 106 RANDOLPH IT MEANS EAST RANDOLPH, DOES IT?

A YES SIR,; ALWAYS EAST RANDOLPH. FIELDEN SAID: "GOOD RESULTS ARE SURE TO FOLLOW ABOLISHMENT OF PRIVATE PROPERTY.

MR. GRINNELL: REPEAT THAT AGAIN.

A GOOD RESULTS ARE SURE TO FOLLOW THE ABOLISHMENT OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. THAT IS THE LAST MEETING I ATTENDED.

Q WHEN DID YOU QUIT THIS BRANCH OF YOUR BUSINESS, THAT IS, THIS SOCIALISTIC BRANCH?

A IN THE LATTER PART OF JANUARY LAST.

Q THIS LAST JANUARY?

A YES.

Q AND YOU WENT ON SOME OTHER JOB?

A I DID.

Q DID YOU KNOW THEN OF PINKERTON'S AGENCY HAVING ANY OTHER MEN EMPLOYED IN THE SAME LINE OF WORK THAT YOU WERE EMPLOYED?

A I KNEW THERE HAD BEEN ANOTHER MAN, BUT WHETHER HE WAS THEN EMPLOYED AT IT OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW.

Q HAVE YOU LATELY, WITHIN THE LAST FEW DAYS ASCERTAINED---HAVE YOU LATELY DISCOVERED, OR DO YOU KNOW THE FACT NOW THAT YOU HAVE SEEN ANY OF PINKERTON'S MEN THAT YOU HAVE RECENTLY MET AS ALSO

HAVING SEEN THEM IN THESE OTHER MEETINGS?

A THAT IS SO.

Q BUT DID YOU KNOW IT AT THAT TIME?

A I DID NOT KNOW IT AT THAT TIME.

Q HOW OFTEN DID THAT ARMED SECTION MEET THAT YOU BELONGED TO AND DRILLED THAT TWICE THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED? DID YOU MEET AND DRILL WITH THEM MORE TIMES THAN THAT?

A ONLY TWICE.

Q HOW OFTEN DID THEY MEET?

A ONCE A WEEK.

Q DO YOU KNOW FROM ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU GOT FROM OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ARMED SECTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY DID, IN FACT, MEET MORE THAN THE TWO TIMES THAT YOU MET WITH THEM?

UNLESS HE KNOWS IT FROM ONE OF THE DEFENDANTS, I DO NOT THINK IT IS COMPETENT.

MR. GRINNELL: WELL, DO YOU KNOW IT FROM ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS?

A I DO NOT.

Q HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY TALK WITH PARSONS?

A I HAVE.

Q BESIDES THESE UTTERENCES FROM TIME TO TIME?

A YES SIR.

Q HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONVERSATION WITH HIM OR WITH FIELDEN OR WITH SPIES OR WITH ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS IN REGARD TO THE PURPOSES

AND OBJECTS OF THEIR ORGANIZATION?

A I HAVE.

Q WHAT WAS THAT?

MR. BLACK: WITH WHOM AND WHEN AND WHERE?

MR. GRINNELL: YES SIR, WITH WHOM AND WHEN WAS IT AND WHERE WAS IT?

A WELL, I HAVE TALKED FREQUENTLY WITH PARSONS AND FIELDEN AT VARIOUS TIME AND VARIOUS PLACES. I CANNOT RECOLLECT AS TO WHAT WAS SAID AT EACH PLACE, OR WHEN IT WAS SAID.

Q CAN YOU GIVE ME THE SUBSTANCE OR PURPORT OF WHAT WAS SAID BY THEM AT ANY TIME?

MR. BLACK: SAID BY WHICH ONE? GIVE AS NEAR THE TIME AND PLACE AS YOU CAN. WE WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO LOCATE THEM.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT WAS THE OBJECT OF THE ARMED SECTION?

MR. BLACK: WHAT WAS SAID IN REFERENCE TO THE OBJECT?

MR. GRINNELL: YES SIR; WHAT WAS SAID. YOU WERE THERE ARMED, DRILLING.

THE COURT: IF IN THE MEETING THAT HE WAS PRESENT AT ANYTHING WAS SAID ABOUT THE OBJECTS OF THE ARMED SECTION, OR IF EITHER OF THE DEFENDANTS TOLD HIM WHAT WAS THE OBJECT OF THE ARMED SECTION LET HIM REPEAT WHAT WAS SAID IN THE MEETING OR WHAT EITHER OF THE DEFENDANTS TOLD HIM.

MR. BLACK: SPECIFY WHICH DEFENDANT.

THE WITNESS: AT THE FIRST MEETING OF THE ARMED SECTION, THE DISCUSSION AROSE AS TO WHAT THE COMPANY SHOULD BE CALLED, OR THE ARMED SECTION, RATHER---WHAT IT SHOULD BE CALLED.

SOME ONE SUGGESTED THAT THE COMPANY SHOULD BE AMALGAMATED WITH THE GERMAN ASSOCIATION. AND THE COMPANY WAS TO BE CALLED THE FOURTH COMPANY OF THE LEHR AND WEHR VEREIN. THIS IDEA WAS OPPOSED BY OTHERS, AND FINALLY AS I HAVE ALREADY STATED, THE COMPANY WAS TO BE CALLED INTERNATIONAL RIFLES.

MR. GRINNELL: WHAT WAS THE OBJECT OF THE INTERNATIONAL RIFLES, IF YOU KNOW?

MR. BLACK: WHAT WAS SAID?

THE WITNESS: IF YOU WILL ALLOW ME TO PROCEED

MR. GRINNELL: YES SIR.

A IT WAS FURTHER SAID AND UNDERSTOOD BY ALL THE MEMBERS.

MR. BLACK: NEVER MIND WHAT THE UNDERSTANDING WAS. WHAT WAS SAID.

THE COURT: WHAT WAS SAID.

A THAT IN CASE OF A CONFLICT WITH THE AUTHORITIES THE INTERNATIONAL RIFLES WAS TO ACT IN CONCERT WITH THE LEHR AND WEHR VEREIN, AND OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS OF THAT ORGANIZATION.

MR. GRINNELL; MR. JOHNSON, WHAT, IF ANYTHING, WAS SAID AT ANY TIME AND WHEN SAID, AS TO WHEN THIS REVOLUTION WAS TO TAKE PLACE, WHEN THERE WAS GOING TO BE A CULMINATION OF THE DIFFICULTIES?

A THE IST OF MAY WAS FREQUENTLY MENTIONED AS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO.

Q WHAT IST OF MAY?

A THIS YEAR.

MR. BLACK: MENTIONED BY WHOM, AND CAN YOU GIVE US SOME TIME WHEN IT WAS MENTIONED.

MR. GRINNELL: WELL, IF IT WAS MENTIONED IN THAT ARMED GROUP BY ANYBODY IT WOULD BE COMPETENT IN THIS CASE.

MR. BLACK: WELL, THAT WOULD DEPEND UPON WHETHER THE DEFENDANTS WERE PRESENT.

THE COURT: WELL, LET THE WITNESS TELL UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES, ON WHAT OCCASION ANY MENTION WAS MADE ABOUT THE TIME.

A AS FAR AS I CAN RECOLLECT IT WAS AT A MEETING AT 12TH STREET TURNER HALL ON ONE OCCASION IN DECEMBER, ONE OF THE MEETINGS WHICH I ATTENDED IN DECEMBER LAST,; AND IT WAS THE DEFENDANT FIELDEN SAID AS NEAR AS I CAN RECOLLECT: "THE 1ST OF MAY WILL BE OUR TIME TO STRIKE THE BLOW, THERE ARE SO MANY STRIKES AND THERE WILL BE FIFTY THOUSAND MEN OUT OF WORK---THAT IS TO SAY, IF THE EIGHT HOUR LAW IS A FAILURE---IF THE

EIGHT HOUR MOVEMENT IS A FAILURE."

MR. GRINNELL: DID YOU TALK WITH PARSONS AT ANY TIME?

A I HAVE.

Q HAVE YOU EVER MET HIM OR SPIES OR FIELDEN, OR ANY OF THEM IN THE ARBEITER ZEITUNG BUILDING OR OFFICE?

A I HAVE.

Q WHAT CONVERSATIONS HAVE YOU HAD THERE FROM TIME TO TIME?

A I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH PARSONS AS NEAR AS I CAN RECOLLECT IN MARCH, 1885; I CANNOT REMEMBER THE DATE, BUT THE CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE IN THE ALARM OFFICE, IN THE ARBEITER ZEITUNG BUILDING. THIS OFFICE IS SITUATED AT THE BACK, BACK OF THE BUILDING.

Q WELL, STATE WHAT YOU REMEMBER OF THAT CONVERSATION?

A I ASKED FIELDEN IF HE DID NOT THINK IT ADVISABLE TO GET SOME PAPERS PRINTED IN THE SCANDAVIAN LANGUAGE AS I THOUGHT I COULD MAKE USE OF THEM: I INTENDED TO DISTRIBUTE THEM AMONG THE SCANDAVIAN PEOPLE ON MILWAUKEE AVENUE AND IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. PARSONS REPLIED:---

THE COURT: YOU SAID YOU ASKED FIELDEN.

A NO; I SAID PARSONS.

MR. GRINNELL: YOU DID SAY FIELDEN, MR. JOHNSON. I WAS GOING TO CORRECT YOU. YOU SAY PARSONS?

A YES SIR.

Q WHAT DID YOU SAY PARSONS REPLIED?

A PARSONS REPLIED: "YES, IT IS A GOOD IDEA, AND THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO IS TO BRING THE MATTER UP IN OUR NEXT MEETING--- BRING IT BEFORE THE MEETING AND I WILL SEE THAT IT IS DONE; I WILL SEE THAT IT IS ATTENDED TO. IT IS NO USE; WE MUST HAVE THE SCANDIVANIANS WITH US.

Q WELL, DID YOU EVER TALK WITH HIM ABOUT THE PURPOSES OR OBJECTS OF THE REVOLUTION, THE SOCIAL REVOLUTION, SO CALLED, OR WITH ANY OF THESE DEFENDANTS?

A I HAVE HAD NUMEROUS CONVERSATION WITH BOTH FIELDEN AND PARSONS, BUT I CANNOT RECOLLECT DISTINCTLY WHAT WAS SAID.

Q WHAT WAS PARSONS' RELATION TO THE ALARM?

A HE WAS EDITOR.

Q DID YOU EVER SEE THE BOOK CALLED: "MOST'S SCIENCE OF THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR?"

YOU CAN LOOK AT THAT BOOK AND SEE IF YOU HAVE EVER SEEN IT BEFORE |HANDING WITNESS BOOK|.

MR. ZEISLER: HE SAID HE COULD NOT READ GERMAN.

THE WITNESS |ANSWERING|: I HAVE.

MR. GRINNELL: JUST SAY WHETHER YOU HAVE SEEN IT AT ANY OF THEIR MEETINGS?

A I HAVE SEEN IT.

Q WHERE?

A I HAVE SEEN IT AT MEETINGS AT 12TH STREET TURNER HALL, AT 54 WEST LAKE STREET AND ALSO AT 106 RANDOLPH STREET.

Q WHO HAD CHARGE OF THE BOOK OR OF THE DISTRIBUTION OF IT AT THOSE MEETINGS?

A THE CHAIRMAN.

Q THE CHAIRMAN OF THE RESPECTIVE MEETINGS?

A YES SIR.

Q WERE THEY SOLD, GIVEN AWAY, OR HOW WERE THEY DISTRIBUTED?

A THEY WERE SOLD.

Q YOU SPOKE A LITTLE WHILE AGO ABOUT THE ALARM, ABOUT SOME ARRANGEMENT THAT PARSONS HAD MADE TO DISTRIBUTE THE ALARM?

A NO SIR, NOT THE ALARM. I HAD SUGGESTED---

Q THAT IS, ABOUT THE SCANDIVIAN PAPER?

A YES.

Q BUT I MEAN IN THE BEADING OF THE REPORTS, IN SOME OF THE REPORTS YOU HAD REFERENCE TO SOMETHING ABOUT PARSONS MAKING SOME REMARKS ABOUT HIS ALARM?

A YES SIR.

Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT ANY MEANS WERE TAKEN TO DISTRIBUTE THE ALARM?

A I DO.

Q WHAT?

A THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THOSE PRESENT AT THAT PARTICULAR MEETING WHO BOUGHT A NUMBER OF COPIES OF THE ALARM, AND STATED EACH ONE THAT THEY WOULD TRY THEIR BEST TO SELL THEM, AND ALSO TO OBTAIN NEW SUBSCRIBERS.

Q DO YOU KNOW SNYDER?

A I DO.

Q THOMAS BROWN?

A YES SIR.

Q DID EITHER OR BOTH OF THEM BELONG TO THE AMERICAN GROUP?

A BOTH OF THEM.

Q DID THEY BELONG TO THE ARMED SECTION OF IT?

A BOTH OF THEM.

Q WHERE USUALLY UP TO THE TIME OF YOUR CEASING YOUR CONNECTION WITH IT WHERE DID THE AMERICAN GROUP MEET?

A DURING THE LAST FEW MEETINGS IT MET AT 106 RANDOLPH STREET.

Q PRIOR TO THAT WHERE DID IT MEET?

A IT HAD MET AT 54 WEST LAKE STREET, ALSO AT 45 NORTH CLARK STREET AND ON THE LAKE FRONT ALSO.

Q DID YOU EVER MEET WITH THE AMERICAN GROUP---DID YOU AS A GROUP, WITH YOUR ORGANIZATION, 107 FIFTH AVENUE, AT THE ARBEITER ZEITUNG OFFICE?

A NO.

Q 636 MILWAUKEE AVENUE, YOU SAY, WAS THE PLACE MENTIONED AS THE PROPER PLACE TO ATTEMPT TO GET TO DRILLING. WERE YOU EVER THERE?

A I WAS THERE.

Q DID IT MEET MORE THAN ONCE THERE?

A I DO NOT KNOW.

Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT HALL IS CALLED?

A I DO.

Q WHAT IS IT?

A THALIA HALL.

Q WHEN YOU JOINED THIS ORGANIZATION DID IT COST YOU ANYTHING?

A TEN CENTS.

Q HOW OFTEN DID YOU HAVE TO PAY THE CONTRIBUTION?

A ONCE A MONTH.

Q HOW MUCH?

A TEN CENTS.

Q WHEN YOU ATTENDED THE ARMED SECTION WAS ANY MONEY SPECIALLY DEVOTED TO THAT PURPOSE?

A NO.

Q WAS ANY MONEY RAISED AT ANY OF THESE MEETINGS SPECIALLY DEVOTED TO THE PURPOSES OF THE ARMED SECTION?

A NOT THAT I KNOW OF.

Q WHAT WAS FIELDEN'S OFFICE, EITHER IN THE GROUP OR IN THE ARMED SECTION?

A HE WAS TREASURER AND SECRETARY.

Q OF BOTH?

A OF THE ORGANIZATION.

Q WHAT ORGANIZATION?

A OF THE GROUP.

Q DID HE HOLD ANY PLACE? WAS HE SIMPLY A PRIVATE IN THAT COMPANY? OR DID HE HOLD ANY OFFICE IN THE ARMED GROUP?

A HE HELD NO OFFICE WHILE I ATTENDED,

Q WHERE DID YOU SAY YOU WERE BORN, MR. JOHNSON?

A AT COPENHAGEN, DENMARK.

Q AT WHAT AGE DID YOU COME TO THIS COUNTRY?

A I CAME HERE ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO, FIVE YEARS AND A HALF.

Q WHAT IS YOUR AGE NOW?

A MY AGE IS THIRTY THREE.

Q WHAT BUSINESS WERE YOU IN BEFORE YOU CAME TO THIS COUNTRY?

A I WAS POLICE OFFICE IN ENGLAND FOR EIGHT YEARS.

Q WHEREABOUTS IN ENGLAND?

A LANCASTERSHIRE.

Q WERE YOU A UNIFORMED POLICEMAN?

A PART OF THE TIME?

Q PART OF THE TIME A DETECTIVE?

A FOR THREE YEARS.

Q THE LAST THREE I SUPPOSE, YOU WERE A DETECTIVE?

A YES SIR.

Q THEN YOU WERE A DETECTIVE FOR THREE YEARS BEFORE YOU CAME TO THIS COUNTRY, AND I SUPPOSE YOU HAVE BEEN A DETECTIVE EVER SINCE?

A PRETTY NEARLY SO.

Q WELL, HAVE YOU BEEN IN ANY LEGITIMATE BUSINESS SINCE YOU CAME TO THIS COUNTRY?

A YES SIR.

Q ANY OTHER LEGITIMATE BUSINESS?

A YES SIR, I HAVE, CERTAINLY.

MR. FOSTER: WHAT IS THAT?

A I WAS EMPLOYED IN A HOTEL FOR ABOUT ELEVEN MONTHS.

Q WHAT AT?

A AS HOUSEMAN AND ASSISTANT STOREKEEPER.

Q ASSISTANT STOREKEEPER OF WHAT?

A ASSISTANT STOREKEEPER; HOUSEMAN AND ASSISTANT STOREKEEPER IN THE HOTEL.

Q O, IN A HOTEL?

A YES, THAT IS IT, CERTAINLY.

Q AS HOUSEMAN AND ASSISTANT STOREKEEPER. WHAT HOTEL WAS THAT?

A WINDSOR HOTEL, ST. PAUL, MINNESOTA.

Q WAS YOU THERE AS A DETECTIVE AT THE TIME?

A CERTAINLY NOT.

Q YOU WERE NOT DETAILED TO GO THROUGH THE HOTEL AND SEE WHAT YOU COULD GET LISTENING ON THE BACK STAIRS?

Q WELL, YOU SAY YOU WERE NOT DETAILED THEN FOR ANY PURPOSE?

A NOT AT THAT TIME.

Q THEN WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ELEVEN MONTHS OF THE FIVE YEARS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU HAVE BEEN ACTING AS A DETECTIVE, AS A PRIVATE DETECTIVE?

A NO I HAVE BEEN A DETECTIVE ONLY ABOUT THREE YEARS I SAID.

Q ABOUT THREE YEARS IN THIS COUNTRY?

A YES SIR.

Q AND THREE YEARS IN ENGLAND?

A YES SIR.

Q AT WHAT PLACE IN ENGLAND DID YOU SAY?

A LANCASTERSHIRE.

Q SO THAT MAKES ABOUT SIX YEARS SERVICE AS A DETECTIVE?

A YES SIR.

Q AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN FOR PINKERTON?

A ABOUT THREE YEARS.

Q CONSECUTIVELY, RIGHT ALONG?

A YES.

Q FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS?

A YES.

Q DOWN TO AND INCLUDING THE PRESENT TIME?

A YES SIR.

Q YOU ARE STILL A DETECTIVE?

A I AM.

Q NOW, YOU SAY THAT THE FIRST MEETING THAT YOU WERE PRESENT AT, I BELIEVE, WAS ABOUT THE 28TH DAY OF FEBRUARY, 1885.

A THE 22ND OF FEBRUARY.

Q THE 2ND OF FEBRUARY, 1885?

A YES SIR.

Q AND I BELIEVE YOU SAY THAT PARSONS WAS AT THAT MEETING?

A HE WAS.

Q THAT WAS AT BAUM'S PAVILIONM WAS IT?

A IT WAS.

Q THAT WAS THE FIRST MEETING THAT YOU EVER ATTENDED?

A THE FIRST.

Q NOW, BAUM'S PAVILION IS A PUBLIC BEER DRINKING GARDEN, ISN'T IT?

A IT IS.

Q IN PLAIN ENGLISH THAT IS WHAT IT IS?

A YES.

Q FOR DRINKING BEER OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT PEOPLE MIGHT DESIRE TO DRINK, AND IT IS AN OUT-DOOR PLACE, TOO, IS IT NOT?

A NO SIR.

Q PART OF IT IS, ISN'T IT?

A THE PLACE IS DIVIDIED INTO A GARDEN AND A HALL; THERE IS A HALL WHERE THE MEETING WAS HELD THAT IS AT THE BACK OF THE GARDEN.

Q BUT IT IS WITHIN HEARING OF THE GARDEN, AND THERE IS NO PARTITION BETWEEN, IS THERE?

A O, YES.

Q AND THERE IS A PARTITION BETWEEN? THAT IS, IS THE HALL THEN COVERED OVERHEAD?

A IT IS.

Q ISN'T IT OPEN AT ONE SIDE?

A IT IS NOT, SIR.

Q NOT OPENED AT THE SIDE?

A NO SIR.

Q THIS THOUGH YOU SAY WAS A PUBLIC MEETING, OPEN TO THE WORLD?

A IT WAS A PUBLIC MEETING.

Q AND AT THAT TIME PARSONS MADE A SPEECH WITH REFERENCE TO GOVERNMENT?

A HE DID.

Q AND MADE A DISCUSSION, OR AT LEAST HELD A DISCUSSION AND PRESENTED HIS OPINIONS IN REGARD TO THE PRESIDENT AND TO OFFICERS AND TO MILITIA AND JUDGES AND SO FORTH. NOW, DID HE PROPOSE ANY PLAN TO GET RID OF THAT AT THAT TIME?

A NO SIR, NOTHING FURTHER THAN I HAVE STATED.

Q SIMPLY MADE A DECLARATION AGAINST THE PARTIES THAT YOU REFERRED TO IN YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION. THAT IS ALL THERE WAS OF IT ON THAT OCCASION?

A YES SIR.

Q AND THEN YOU SKIPPED TO MARCH IST. AT THAT TIME YOU BECAME A MEMBER YOU SAY?

A YES SIR, ON MARCH IST.

Q WERE YOUR ANTECEDANTS INQUIRED INTO ON THAT OCCASION?

A NO SIR.

Q YOU SIMPLY TOLD YOU WOULD LIKE TO JOIN, PAID YOUR TEN CENTS AND WAS TAKEN RIGHT ALONG?

A THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS OF IT.

Q NOW, ISN'T IT IN YOUR EXFERIENCE EVER SINCE YOU HAVE KNOWN ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GROUP THAT IT IS OPEN TO THE WORLD----ANYBODY THAT HAS GOT TEN CENTS AND EXPRESSED A DESIRE CAN JOIN?

A AS FAR AS I KNOW, YES.

Q AS FAR AS YOU KNOW----YOU NEVER SAW ANYBODY EXCLUDED FROM ANY OF THEIR MEETINGS, DID YOU? I SPEAK NOW OF THE GROUP, NOT OF THE ARMED SECTION. I WILL COME TO THAT AFTERWARDS.

A I HAVE SEEN REPORTERS EXCLUDED.

Q DID YOU EVER SEE ANYBODY EXCEPT REPORTERS?

A NO SIR.

Q THAT IS, ANY MEMBERS, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT MEMBERS OF THE ORGANIZATION?

A NO SIR.

Q AND REPORTERS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT YOU HAVE. NOW, I WILL ASK YOU IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT IT WAS A FACT THAT AT ALMOST EVERY MEETING AT 54 WEST LAKE STREET, IN THE THIRD STORY, THE HALL, THAT THE REPORTERS WERE THERE AND THAT THERE WAS A TABLE FOR THEIR USE?

A THERE WAS A TABLE THERE, BUT I NEVER SAW ANY TABLE FOR THE REPORTERS' USE.

Q WELL, WASN'T THERE REPORTERS THERE FREQUENTLY?

A NO SIR, NOT FREQUENTLY,. OCCASIONALLY.

Q OCCASIONALLY?

A YES SIR.

Q YOU HAVE SEEN REPORTERS THERE FOR VARIOUS NEWSPAPERS, HAVEN'T YOU?

A I HAVE NEVER SEEN MORE THAN ONE THERE AT A TIME, AND NOT VERY FREQUENT.

Q HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU SAY?

A I SAY I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE AT A TIME THERE; NEVER TWO AT ANY TIME.

MR. GRINNELL: AND NOT VERY FREQUENT HE SAID.

MR. FOSTER: NOW, UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES DID YOU EVER SEE A REPORTER EXCLUDED?

A I HAVE SEEN THEM COME THERE AND HE HAD PAPERS AND BOOKS IN HIS HAND AND SOME ONE SAID: "THAT IS A REPORTER; HE HAS NO RIGHT HERE; HE DOES NOT REPORT OUR MEETINGS CORRECTLY; WE DON'T WANT HIM HERE."

Q YES. THEY PROHIBITED A PARTICULAR REPORTER BECAUSE HE DID NOT REPORT THEIR MEETING CORRECTLY?

A SO THEY SAID.

Q BUT OTHERS, TO OTHER REPORTERS THERE WAS NO OBJECTION MADE; THEY WERE ALLOWED TO COME IN HERE?

A I HAVE SEEN MORE THAN ONE EXCLUDED.

Q ON THAT ACCOUNT?

A SO IT WAS SAID.

Q AND YOU HAVE SEEN MORE THAN ONE ADMITTED, WITHOUT OBJECTION, HAVEN'T YOU?

A YES SIR.

Q AND YOU HAVE SEEN THEM THERE WITH THEIR BOOK, NOTE BOOKS IN THEIR HANDS AND TAKING NOTES RIGHT DURING THE MEETING?

A I HAVE OCCASIONALLY.

Q YOU SAY THAT TEN CENTS SEEMED TO BE THE REQUISITE OF JOINING THIS SOCIETY.

A TEN CENTS.

Q THERE WAS AN USHER THERE USUALLY AT THESE MEETINGS?

A AN USHER?

Q YES, DO YOU KNOW WHAT AN USHER IS?

A, WELL, I DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND.

Q DID YOU EVER GO TO CHURCH?

A YES SIR.

Q YOU HAVE BEEN TO CHURCH?

A YES SIR.

Q RECENTLY HERE IN CHICAGO, BEEN TO CHURCH?

A YES SIR, RECENTLY.

Q NOW, YOU HAVE SOME TIMES BEEN MET BY A PERSON AT THE DOOR?

A YES SIR.

Q AND THEY INVITED YOU TO A SEAXT?

A YES SIR.

Q WELL, THEY USUALLY TERM THEM USHERS. THE SAME THING I SUPPOSE YOU HAVE FOUND AT THEATRICAL ENTERTAINMENTS, NOW, THAT IS WHAT I TERM AN USHER. WAS THERE ANY SUCH PERSON AS THAT AT THESE MEETINGS?

A NO. BUT I HAVE SEEN SOME OF THE OLDER MEMBERS WHEN THEY SAW STRANGERS COME THEY HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR OWN SEATS AND ASKED THEM TO SIT DOWN.

Q NOW, THEN, THIS MAN THAT WAS AT THE DOOR LOOKED SHARP TO SEE WHETHER THERE WERE STRANGERS OR NOT?

A YES SIR.

Q DID YOU EVER SEE HIM EXCLUDE ANYBODY UNLESS IT SHOULD BE A REPORTER?

A I HAVE NOT.

Q NEVER?

A NO SIR.

Q THEN IF A PERSON SEEMED TO BE A STRANCER, SEEMED TO HAVE A HESTIANCY ABOUT COMING IN, THEY WOULD BE GIVEN A SEAT EVEN IF AN OLD MEMBER HAD TO GET UP?

A THAT IS SO.

Q THAT IS THE IDEA, AND IF THEY DID NOT HAVE THE TEN CENTS TO PAY TO BECOME AM MEMBER, HAVEN'T YOU SEEN THEM ADMITTED WITHOUT THE TEN CENTS?

A I HAVE.

Q AND UPON THE GROUND THAT THE MAN HADN'T THE TEN CENTS TO JOIN?

A THAT IS SO.

Q THAT YOU HAVE SEEN ALSO?

A YES SIR.

Q NOW, WILL YOU TELL ME THE NAME OF ANY REPORTER THAT YOU EVER SAW EXCLUDED?

A I DO NOT KNOW THE NAMES.

Q YOU DO NOT KNOW THE REPORTERS?

A I CANNOT SAY WHAT PAPER THEY WERE ON.

Q BUT IT WAS, YOU SAY, UPON THE GROUND THAT THEY DID NOT REPORT CORRECTLY?

A SO IT WAS SAID.

Q SO IT WAS SAID AT THAT TIME?

A YES SIR.

Q NOW, IN THE MARCH MEETING YOU BECAME A MEMBER AND YOU RECEIVED A CARD WITH YOUR NAME ON IT AND A NUMBER?

A YES SIR.

Q DID YOU EVER BELONG TO ANY LABOR ORGANIZATION OF ANY KIND BEFORE THAT

A NEVER DID.

Q YOU DO, NOT KNOW THEN, WHETHER EVERY MAN WHO JOINS AN ORGANIZATION OF THAT KIND RECEIVES NUMBER AND A CARD WITH HIS NAME?

A THEY DO, AS FAR AS I HAVE SEEN.

Q SO FAT AS YOU HAVE SEEN, OF OTHER LABOR ORGAINZATIONS?

A I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT OTHER LABOR ORGANIZATIONS.

Q HAVE YOU GOT YOUR CARD WITH YOU?

A I HAVE NOT.

Q WHAT DID YOU DO WITH IT?

A IT HAS BEEN MISLAID.

Q NOW, YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS A MAN THAT DELIVERED A LECTURE THERE AND WANTED TO MAKE THIS A CHURCH INSTEAD OF SOMETHING ELSE, OR AT LEAST HE WANTED TO BRING INTO IT A DISCUSSION OF RELIGIOUS SUBJECTS?

A YES SIR.

Q AND THERE WAS SOME OF THE MEMBERS GOT UP THERE AND SAID THAT THAT WAS NOT A SOCIETY TO DISCUSS RELIGION IN; THEY OBJECT TO RELIGION BEING A PART OF THE OBJECTS OF THE ORGANIZATION?

A NO. THEY SAID THAT THAT WAS NO PLACE TO DISCUSS RELIGION, AND THEY DID NOT---CHRISTIANITY; THAT WAS THE WORD USED.

Q YES, THAT THAT WAS NO PLACE TO DISCUSS CHRISTIANITY?

A YES SIR.

Q IN OTHER WORDS, THEY SAID, THEY DID NOT, THAT THIS IS NOT A PLACE, THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS SOCIETY; THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION, AND OBJECTED TO ITS BEING HAD THERE AT THEIR MEETING?

A IT WAS OBJECTED TO, CERTAINLY.

Q IT WAS OBJECTED TO, NOT ON THE CROUND THAT CHRISTIANITY--- THAT THEY HAD ANY OBJECTIONS TO CHRISTIANITY, BUT THAT IT HAD NO PLACE, AND DISCUSSION OF IT, IN THEIR MEETING?

A I THINK YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME. THAT WAS ONE OF THE OBJECTIONS---THAT THEY THOUGHT CHRISTIANITY AND SOCIALISM HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.

Q THAT IS, THERE WAS NOTHING IN COMMON?

A NO.

Q BETWEEN SOCIALISM AND CHRISTIANITY?

A NOTHING IN COMMON.

Q BUT THEY DID SAY THAT THAT WAS NO PLACE FOR A DISCUSSION OF RELIGIOUS SUBJECTS AT THAT MEETING?

A YES, AND FURTHER THAT THEY DID NOT WANT CHRISTIANITY INTRODUCED IN THEIR DISCUSSIONS AT ALL.

Q THEY DID NOT WANT IT INTRODUCED AND DISCUSSED IN THEIR MEETINGS?

A YES SIR.

Q IN OTHER WORDS, THAT THEIR MEETING WAS FOR OTHER PURPOSES?

A YES SIR.

Q THAT FOR THE DISCUSSION OF RELISIOUS SUEJECTS? NOW, ON MARCH 4, YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS ANDTHER MEETING AND PARSONS COMPLAINED THAT THE ALARM WAS SORELY IN NEED OF SOME FUNDS?

A YES SIR.

Q THAT IS ABOUT ALL THERE WAS SAID? HE WAS MAKING A BID FOR THE CIRCULATION OF HIS PAPER AND FOR FUNDS, AND THAT IS ALL THAT AMOUNTED TO, I BELIEVE, AND ON MARCH 22, THERE WAS ANOTHER MEETING YOU, SAY IN WHICH THE DEFENDANT SPIES SPOKE. YOU SAY THAT MR. SPIES ENTERED A RESOLUTION OF SYMPATHY FOR A GIRL?

A YES SIR.

MR. GRINNELL---NO. SOMEBODY INTRODUCED IT, WASN'T IT?

A YES SIR.

MR. FOSTER --- WELL, THERE WAS A RESOLUTION OS SYMPATHY FOR A GIRL INTRODUCED?

A IT WAS INTRODUCED; SPIES OPPOSED THE RESOLUTION THERE.

Q HE OPPOSED THE RESOLUTION BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE, THE MAN WOULD BE DISCHARGED ANYHOW, OR SOME THING TO THAT EFFECT.

A HE SAID IT WAS OF NO USE TO MAKE RESOLUTIONS.

Q WHAT DO YOU SAY HE SAID?

A HE SAID IT WAS OF NO USE TO MAKE RESOLUTIONS OR PASS RESOLUTIONS.

Q WHAT WAS IT HE SAID?

A IT IS OF NO USE TO PASS OR MAKE RESOLUTIONS.

Q THAT IS, THE GIRL HAD HAD HER DAY IN COURT AND HE OPPOSED THEIR

PASSING ANY RESOLUTIONS ON THE SUBJECT AT ALL? NOW, DIDN'T HE?

A HE OPPOSED IT CERTAINLY, AND HE STATED HIS REASONS.

Q WELL, WHAT DID HE SAY THE REASONS WERE?

A HE SAID THERE WAS NO USE TO PASS RESOLUTIONS; THEY HAD TO ACT. AND HE URGED UPON SOMEONE OR ASKED SOME ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN, TOLD THEM THAT THIS WAS A FINE OPPORTUNITY FOR SOME ONE OF THEM TO GO AND SHOOT.

Q SHOOT WHO?

A SHOOT WIGHT.

Q SHOOT WIGHT. NOW, YOU ARE SURE THAT MR. SPIES SAID---

A QUITE SURE.

Q YOU KNOW THAT; YOU REMEMBER DISTINCTLY?

A I DO REMEMBER IT QUITE DISTINCTLY.

Q YOU DO NOT RELY ON YOUR NOTES FOR YOUR RECOLLECTION, DO YOU, ON THAT?

A NO SIR, NOT ALTOGETHER.

Q NOW, YOU REMEMBER THAT MR. SPIES IN OPPOSING THAT RESOLUTION, SAYS THAT SOMEBODY OUGHT TO TAKE A PISTOL AND GO AND SHOOT WIGHT?

A YES SIR.

Q THAT AS THE ONLY MEANS OF GETTING RID OF HIM? NOW, YOU WROTE DOWN WHAT WAS SAID RIGHT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT MEETING ADJOURNED, DIDN'T YOU?

A I WROTE THAT DOWN THE SAME NIGHT.

Q AND THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE RIGHT HERE? |INDICATING MANUSCRIPT.|

A CERTAINLY.

Q NOW, I WILL ASK YOU IF YOU DID NOT WRITE THIS: "AFTER SPIES CONCLUDED---"

MR. GRINNELL--- THAT IS ANOTHER CASE ENTIRELY.

MR. FOSTER---WHAT DID YOU SAY THE MAN'S NAME WAS.

A WIGHT.

Q WHAT IS IT, WRIGHT OR WIGHT?

A WIGHT.

Q THAT IS IT EXACTLY. NOW THEN, DIDN'T YOU WRITE THIS--AND THIS IS THE MEETING, AND DIDN'T YOU IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS MEETING ADJOURNED, WRITE IN YOUR HAND WRITING WITH YOUR OWN PEN THESE WORDS: "AFTER SPIES CONCLUDED, KEAGEN STOOD UP AND REMARKED THAT SOME ONE WITH NERVE ENOUGH SHOULD GET A PISTOL AND GO AND SHOOT MR. WIGHT?"

A EXACTLY.

Q THAT MR. KEAGEN STOOD UP AND SAID THAT?

A HE SAID THAT CERTAINLY; AND MR. SPIES SAID SO ALSO.

Q AND YET YOU SWEAR HERE THAT MR. SPIES SAID IT?

A I HAVE SAID IT, AND I HAVE SWORN IT.

Q DO YOU SAY NOW THAT YOU WROTE ANYWHERE IN YOUR RECORD THE STATEMENT THAT MR. SPIES SAID THAT SOME OF THE COURAGEOUS YOUNG MEN SHOULD TAKE A PISTOL AND GO SHOOT WIGHT.

A I SAID THIS,--" I SAY THAT HERE WAS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR SOME OF THE COURAGEOUS YOUNG MEN TO GO AND AVENGE THE GIRL, GET A PISTOL AND SHOOT WIGHT.

Q THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY SPIES SAID?

A YES.

Q AND YOU REMEMBER THAT END YOU WROTE IT DOWN RIGHT AWAY AFTERWARDS?

A I WON'T SAY THAT I WROTE IT DOWN EXACTLY AS I STATED.

Q NOW, YOU JUST SHOW US WHERE IT IS WRITTEN.

A I SAY I WON'T SAY I WROTE IT DOWN EXACTLY AS I STATED IT.

Q YOU WON'T?

A NO SIR.

Q NOW, YOU SAY THAT WHAT YOU HEARD YOU WROTE DOWN IMMEDIATELY, AFTER, ON THE SAME NIGHT. JUST SHOW ME THAT, WHERE YOU WROTE THAT MR. SPIES SAID, "SOME OF THE YOUNG MEN OUGHT TO GO AND SHOOT WIGHT?

A I SAY IT MIGHT NOT BE WRITTEN DOWN.

Q OH, IT MIGHT NOT BE WRITTEN DOWN. YOUR MEMORY IS BETTER NOW AFTER A YEAR AND A HALF THAN IT WAS THE SAME NIGHT.

A CONSIDERABLE BETTER.

Q OH, IT IS?

A I GET MY MEMORY REFRESHED.

Q A DETECTIVE'S MEMORY GROWS BETTER, AS TIME GOES ALONG?

A SOMETIMES.

THE COURT: IF YOU WANT HIM TO SHOW YOU WHAT HE WROTE DOWN, LET HIM FIND THE PLACE WHERE HE WROTE ANYTHING ON THAT SUBJECT?

MR. FOSTER---WELL, HE WILL NEVER FIND IT, YOUR HONOR.

A |AFTER LOOKING OVER MANUSCRIPT.| THIS IS ALL THAT WAS SAID HERE.

Q NOW, YOU HAVE LOOKED AT WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS MEETING? DOES YOUR MINUTES WHICH YOU WROTE DOWN THERE AS A DETECTIVE, THE SAME NIGHT, SHOW THAT MR. SPIES RECOMMENDED THAT SOME YOUNG MAN TAKE A PISTOL AND GO AND SHOOT WIGHT?

A NO SIR. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Q AND THIS YOU MADE AS A CORRECT STATEMENT OF WHAT TOOK PLACE AT THE MEETING?

A AS FAR AS I REMEMBER.

Q AND YOUR REPORT DOES STATE HERE IN WRITING THAT AFTER MR. SPIES HAD CONCLUDED HIS REMARKS. THAT KEAGEN GOT UP AND SAID THAT SOME MAN OUGHT TO TAKE A PISTOL AND GO AND SHOOT WIGHT?

A YES.

Q AND YOU SAY THAT THE STATEMENT WAS MADE THERE THAT THE GIRL HAD BEEN REFUSED A WARRANT?

A YES.

Q SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE HIGH STANDING OF THE MAN THAT WAS ACCUSED?

A OF THE HIGH SOCIAL STANDING.

Q HIGH SOCIAL STANDING OF THE MAN THAT WAS ACCUSED?

A YES.

Q THAT WAS AT THE MEETING OF THE 1ST OF APRIL, I BELIEVE? -- NO.

A THAT WAS IN MARCH.

Q MARCH 22ND. ON MARCH 29TH, YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER MEETING?---AND FIELDEN SPOKE; AND MR. FIELDEN AT THAT TIME SAID THAT A FEW EXPLOSIONS IN THE CITY WOULD HELP THE CAUSE, AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT BLOWING UP THE BOARD OF TRADE.

A NO.

A NO TIME FIXED TO BLOW IT UP?

A NO.

Q NO COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO BLOW IT UP?

A NOT AS I KNOW OF.

Q AND NO ARRANGEMENTS MADE TO BLOW IT UP?

A NOT AS I KNOW OF.

Q AND YOU SAY SPIES MADE A SPEECH ON THAT OCCASION? NOW, AT THIS MEETING ON THE 1ST OF APRIL, IN WHICH SPIES MADE A SPEECH WAS THERE AN EXPRESSION IN REGARD TO THE ASSULT UPON MARTHA SEIDLER WAS THERE, THE FIRST DAY OF APRIL? MARTHA SEIDLER, AT THAT TIME, IT WAS CLAIMED, HAD BEEN RAPED WHILE SHE WAS UNDER ARREST.

A YES.

Q AND AT THE POLICE HEADQUARTERS?

A I SO UNDERSTOOD.

Q AND IT WAS ALSO STATED THERE THAT THE POLICE HAD GOTTEN TOGETHER AND SWORN OUT THE SERGEANT THAT WAS CHARGED WITH

THAT OFFENSE, WASN'T HE?

A YES.

Q AND THAT HE HAD BEEN DISCHARGED? NOTWITHSTANDING THAT THE GIRL HAD BEEN GROSSLY ABUSED AND MALTREATED AND INJURED---THAT STATEMENT WAS MADE, WASN'T IT?

A SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.

Q AND THEN IT WAS THAT SOMEONE SAID THAT A MAN THAT WOULD DO THAT, ALTHOUGH HE HAD BEEN ACQUITED BY HIS BROTHER POLICEMEN, STANDING AND HOVERING OVER HIM, OUGHT TO BE SHOT? OR SHOT DOWN LIKE A DOG---SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT, WAS IT?

A I DON'T KNOW AS IT WAS SAID EXACTLY AS YOU SAY IT.

Q NO, BUT THAT HE OUGHT TO BE SHOT?

A YES.

Q AND THOSE WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THESE UTTEREANCE WERE MADE, WERE THEY NOT? AS DETAILED THERE IN THAT MEETING, WERE THEY NOT?

A PROBABLY THEY WERE.

Q PROBABLY; DON'T YOU KNOW THEY WERE?

A NO.

Q DON'T YOU REMEMBER THAT THEY WERE. DON'T YOU REMEMBER THAT THIS OUTRAGE WAS TALKED ABOUT?

A IT WAS TALKED ABOUT.

Q CERTAINLY. IT WAS TALKED ABOUT, AND IT WAS ON THE HEELS OF THAT THAT THIS EXPRESSION WAS MADE IN REGARD TO SHOOTING?---APRIL

8TH, THERE WAS ANOTHER MEETING AND PARSONS MADE A SPEECH IN REGARD TO THE MC.CORMICK STRIKE, AND HE SAYS THERE, THAT THEY MUST WORK FOR THE WAGES OFFERED OR ELSE THEY MUST STARVE, AND THAT WAS ALL HE SAID, WASN'T IT?

A YES.

Q AND YOU JOTTED THAT DOWN IN YOUR NOTE BOOK? ---THAT HE SAID THAT THEY MUST WORK FOR WHAT WAS OFFERED THEM, OR ELSE THEY MUST STARVE, AND THAT IS ALL THAT WAS SAID BY MR. PARSONS IN THAT CONNECTION THAT YOU REMEMBER OF NOW?

A THAT IS ALL THAT I REMEMBER OF, UNLESS I REFER TO THE NOTES.

Q AND THEN AFTER THAT I WILL CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO ANOTHER THING THAT WAS SAID. HE SAID THERE WAS A STRIKE GOING ON DOWN AT LA SALLE, DIDN'T HE?

A YES SIR'.

MR. GRINNELL: I WOULD SUGGEST, MR. FOSTER, AS LONG AS YOU ARE UNDETAKING TO PUT INTO THE MOUTH OF THE WITNESS ON CROSS-EXAMINATION WHAT HE HAS SAID, THAT HE BE PERMITTED TO HAVE HIS NOTES.

MR. FOSTER---WHEN EVER HE SAYS THAT HE WANTS, TO, HE CAN HAVE THEM.

MR. GRINNELL:---WOULD YOU LIKE THOSE NOTES IN YOUR HANDS, MR. JOHNSON, IN ORDER TO REFER TO THEM?

A I SHOULD BETTER BE ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

MR. FOSTER---BUT DO YOU REMEMBER THAT THE ASSERTION WAS MADE BY MR. PARSONS, THAT ON THE NEXT DAY PROBABLY, A CAR LOAD OF

POLICEMEN, OR OF THE MILITIA WOULD BE SENT DOWN TO LA SALLE TO SHOOT THE RIOTERS, OR TO SHOOT THE STRIKERS, AS HE EXPRESSED, AND THEN HE ADVISED THE USE OF SOME SOFT SOAP?

A YES.

Q ON THE TRACKS?

A ON THE RAILS.

Q OR, RATHER, HE DID NOT SAY, "WE HAD BETTER GO AND USE SOME SOFT SOAP ON THE RAILS," DID HE? HE SIMPLY SAID THAT IF SOAP WAS PUT ON THE RAILS, IT COULD NOT GO.

Q AND THAT IS ALL THERE WAS TO IT?

A YES.

Q HE DID NOT SAY THAT HE WAS GOING TO PUT ANY SOAP ON IT?

MR. GRINNELL:-- NOW, MR. JOHNSON, LOOK AT YOUR NOTES IN THAT PARTICULAR, AND SEE WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS ALL.

THE COURT--IF HE IS CALLED UPON FOR THE EXACT WORDS, AND WANTS HIS NOTES, AS AID TO THE WORDS, WHY THEN, HE OUGHT TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONSULT THEM. BUT I SUPPOSE THAT THE DEFENDANTS' COUNSEL HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXAMINE HIM FROM HIS NOTES WHICH HE USED UPON HIS EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF.

MR. GRINNELL-- I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO THAT.

THE COURT---WHEN IT COMES, HOWEVER, TO THE SUBSTANCE, NOT THE PRECISE WORDS, THE SUBSTANCE OF THE WORDS WHICH THE WITNESS TESTIFIES THAT ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS USED, WHY, HE CANNOT HAVE HIS NOTES FOR THAT. BECAUSE AS TO WHAT THE REAL SUBSTANCE OF THE REMARK WAS, NOT WHERE IT IS A QUESTION OF THE IDENTITY OF LANGUAGE, HE

MUST TESTIFY FROM HIS MEMORY.

MR. FOSTER---NOW, YOU SAY THAT MR. FIELDEN SAID THAT HE THANKED GOD THAT SOMETHING HAD BEEN DISCOVERED BY WHICH THE WORKINGMEN COULD PROTECT THEMSELVES AGAINST THE GATLING GUN.

THE COURT---THAT IS NOT FAIR, MR. FOSTER.

MR. FOSTER---OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.

THE COURT---THAT IS NOT FAIR. HE NEVER SAID THAT FIELDEN THANKED GOD. HE SAID THAT FIELDEN SAID IT WAS A BLESSING.

MR. GRINNELL---THAT IS THE OBJECTION I HAVE TO IT. MR. FOSTER HAS UNDERTAKEN TO TAKE DOWN IN LONG-HAND THE PRECISE WORDS, AND PUT THEM BACK TO HIM.

MR. FOSTER--- MR. FIELDEN SAID THAT HE WAS GLAD, AT LEAST, THAT SOMETHING HAD BEEN DISCOVERED BY WHICH THE WORKINGMEN COULD MEET THE GATLING GUN, DID HE?

THE COURT--- WELL NOW, THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID THAT FIELDEN SAID, MR. FOSTER.

MR. FOSTER--- DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT FIELDEN SAID ABOUT THE GATLING GUN?

A I THINK I DO.

Q WHAT IS IT?

A HE SAID THIS: "IT IS A BLESSING THAT SOMETHING HAS BEEN DISCOVERD WHEREWITH TO FIGHT THE POLICE AND THE MILITIA WITH THEIR GATLING GUNS."

Q THAT IS, THE GATLING GUNS AND THE POLICE AND THE MILITIA WERE

ON ONE SIDE, AND THE WORKINGMEN, ON THE OTHER, ACCORDING TO THE WAY THAT YOU REMEMBER?

A YES.

Q WHAT DID HE SAY THAT WAS?

A WHAT WAS?

Q THAT HAD BEEN DISCOVERED: NOW, DID HE SAY?

A HE SAID WHAT I HAVE STATED, AND NOTHING MORE.

Q WELL, BUT DID HE SAY WHAT IT WAS THAT HAD BEEN DISCOVERED, WHICH WOULD FIGHT THE POLICE AND MILITIA AND WITH THEIR GATLING GUNS?

A WHETHER HE SAID SO ON THAT OCCASION OR NOT, I DO NOT REMEMBER.

Q YOU DO NOT REMEMBER?

A NO SIR.

Q NOW, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE 8TH OF APRIL. THE NEXT MEETING IS THE 19TH. A RESOLUTION WAS OFFERED BY PARSONS IN SYMPATHY FOR LOUIS RIEL, AND THE HALF-BREEDS THAT WERE CAPTURED UP IN CANADA, HERE, I SUPPOSE?

A YES, I PRESUME THAT IS WHAT HE MEANT.

Q WELL, YOU UNDERSTOOD, DIDN'T YOU, THAT LOUIS RIEL WAS CAPTURED UP IN THERE?

A YES.

Q AND WAS HANGED?

A YES.

Q AND THE RESOLUTION WAS ONE OF SYMPATHY?

A AT THAT TIME, HE WASN'T HUNG.

Q WHAT DID HE SAY IN SUPPORT OF THAT RESOLUTION?

A I CANNOT REMEMBER THE EXACT WORDS OF THE RESOLUTION.

Q BUT WHAT DID HE SAY ON THE RESOLUTION. NOW WHAT WAS THE RESOLUTION?

A THE RESOLUTION WAS TO BE ONE OF SYMPATHY FOR LOUIS RIEL, AND THE HALF-BREEDS.

Q YES, BUT WHAT WAS HIS SPEECH? WHAT REMARKS DID HE MAKE ON THE RESOLUTION?

A I CANNOT TELL YOU THE EXACT WORDS THAT HE MADE USE OF.

Q GIVE US THE SUBSTANCE OF WHAT HE SAID ON OFFERING THE RESOLUTION, GIVE US IN SUBSTANCE, ACCORDING TO YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION, WHAT PARSONS SAID IN REGARD TO IT?

A TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, THE RESOLUTION WAS WORDED AS FOLLOWS: "WE, THE WORKING PEOPLE, MEMBERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL WORKING PEOPLE'S ASSOCIATION, DO HEREBY TENDER OUR SYMPATHY TO LOUIS RIEL, AND THE HALF-BREDS WHO ARE IN REBELLION AGAINST THE CANADIAN COVERNMENT."

Q AND IS THAT ALL?

A NO. THERE IS MORE, BUT I CANNOT SAY THAT I REMEMBER EXACTLY UNLESS YOU ALLOW ME TO REFER TO MY NOTES.

Q WELL, WE ARE NOT PARTICULAR, I DID NOT ASK YOU FOR THAT AT ALL BUT AFTER OFFERRING THAT RESOLUTION, WHAT DID HE SAY IN SUPPORTING IT?

WELL, THERE WAS A GOOD LONG DISCUSSION TOOK PLACE AND A GOOD DEAL WAS SAID ABOUT IT.

Q WHAT DID PARSONS SAY?

A I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT HE SAID. HE SAID A GREAT DEAL THERE.

Q HE DID SAY A GREAT DEAL THERE?

A YES, AND OTHERS SPOKE ALSO.

Q WELL, PARSONS WAS THE FATHER OF THE RESOLUTION, AS YOU UNDERSTOOD IT? HE WROTE IT, HE PRESENTED IT, HE READ IT.

A HE WROTE IT. HE PRESENTED IT.

Q THEN HE MADE THE FIRST SPEECH ON IT.?

A YES.

Q NOW, CAN'T YOU TELL US ANYTHING HE SAID? YOU SAY HE MADE A LONG SPEECH?

A NOT, I DON'T SAY HE MADE A LONG SPEECH. I SAID THERE WAS A LONG DISCUSSION ABOUT THE RESOLUTION.

Q WELL HOW LONG A DISCOURSE DID PARSONS MAKE UPON IT?

A I CANNOT SAY.

Q TEN MINUTES?

A IT WAS A GENERAL DISCUSSION.

Q I AM TALKING ABOUT PARSONS. HOW LONG DID PARSONS SPEAK TO IT?

A WELL, I CAN NOT SAY.

Q WELL, ABOUT HOW LONG DO YOU THINK?

A THEY WERE ALL TAKLING TOGETHER, MOSTLY, MOST OF THE TIME.

Q YOU REMEMBER THAT PARSONS DID SPEAK TO THE RESOLUTION, OF COURSE?

A YES.

Q NOW, CAN'T YOU TELL US ANYTHING THAT HE SAID?

A HE SPOKE OF COURSE, WHEN HE INTRODUCED THE RESOLUTION.

Q MADE QUITE A LIVELY SPEECH THERE?

A NO, HE MADE NO LIVELY SPEECH.

Q DON'T YOU KNOW THAT HE OFFERED THE RESOLUTION AND READ IT AND NEVER SAID A WORD IN SUPPORT OF THE RESOLUTION?

A HE MIGHT HAVE OFFERED THE RESOLUTION AND SAID NOTHING JUST THEN?

Q DON'T YOU KNOW THAT YOU A LITTLE WHILE AGO SAID THAT HE OFFERED A RESOLUTION BUT DIDN'T SPEAK TO IT, BUT OTHERS DID?

A NO SIR; I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH A THING.

Q YOU NEVER SAID ANYTHING OF THAT KIND?

A I SAID THERE WAS A GENERAL DISCUSSION.

Q IN WHICH PARSONS DID NOT PARTICIPATE---DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT?

A NO SIR; I NEVER SAID SO.

Q YOU NEVER SAID SO. VERY WELL, I TILL LEAVE THAT TO THE RECORD AND YOU TO ARGUE OUT. ---ON THE 22ND DAY OF APRIL THERE WAS SOMETHING SAID ABOUT THE BOARD OF TRADE MEETING. NOW AT ANY AND ALL OF THESE MEETINGS AT WHICH YOU WERE PRESENT, YOU SAY AS A DETECTIVE, DID YOU EVER HEAR OF AN ARRANGEMENT, AN ORGANIZATION AND TIME FIXED TO BLOW UP THE BOARD OF TRADE?

A I NEVER HEARD OF AN ARRANGEMENT FIXED NO FURTHER THAN THAT MEETING WAS CALLED AND IT WAS GENERALLY KNOWN AND IT WAS ARRANGED FOR A PROCESSION TO TAKE PLACE TO THE BOARD OF TRADE.

Q CERTAINLY. WE WILL COME TO THAT AFTER A LITTLE. NOW, AT ANY TIME BEFORE OR AFTER THAT MEETING---AND WE WILL LEAVE THAT MEETING OUT---DID YOU EVER HEAR ARRANGEMENT MADE.

A WHICH MEETING DO YOU REFER TO NOW?

Q THE NIGHT OF THE DEDICATION OF THE BOARD., WHEN THEY MET IN THE MARKET SQUARE. I WILL LEAVE THAT OUT.

A THAT IS THE 30TH.

Q YES SIR, ON THE 30TH OF APRIL.

A IS THAT THE MEETING YOU REFER TO NOW?

Q NO SIR, I REFER TO EVERY OTHER MEETING THAN THAT. DID YOU AT ANY OTHER MEETING ---WERE YOU EVER PRESENT AT WHICH THERE WAS A TIME FIXED OR AN ARRANGEMENT MADE FOR BLOWING UP THE BOARD OF TRADE BUILDING?

A NO SIR, NOTHING FURTHER THAN: I HAVE ALREADY STATED.

Q WERE YOU EVER PRESENT AT ANY MEETING IN WHICH IT WAS AGREED AND THE TIME FIXED FOR BLOWING UP ANY BUILDING IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO?

A NO SIR.

Q OR TAKING THE LIFE OF ANY MAN IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO?

A NO SIR.

Q OR OF THE GUTTING OF ANY STORE IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO?

A NO SIR.

Q AND WHEN THEY WERE DISCUSSING THE MEETING, WHICH WAS TO BE HAD ON THE 29TH, YOU SAY?

A THE 30TH.

Q THE 30TH-----THAT FIELDEN MADE SOME REMARKS OF BRINGING OUT THE TRAMPS OUT OF THEIR BOARDING-HOUSES?

A YES SIR, LODGES.

Q AND HAVING AS BIG A MEETING AS THEY COULD, GET.

A YES SIR.

Q WHAT DID HE SAY THEY WERE GOING TO DO WITH THE TRAMPS IN THE BOARDING HOUSES?

A THEY WERE GOING TO FORM A PROCESSION HE STATED THERE.

Q WHAT ELSE WAS IT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY?

A AND THE MORE WE CAN GET THE MERRIER IT WILL BE; THE MORE THE MERRIER.

Q YES. SO THAT THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE THE TRAMPS IN LINE?

A YES.

Q AND TRAMP THEM TO THE BOARD OF TRADE IN THE PROCESSION?

A THAT IS ALL TRUE.

Q BUT HE DID NOT SAY THEY WANTED THE TRAMPS TO HELP THEM BLOW THE THING UP, DID HE?

A HE DID NOT SAY SO.

Q DID NOT SAY ANY THING OF THAT KIND. AND THAT BRINGS US NOW TO THE 26TH DAY OF APRIL, AND PARSONS SAID THAT; "ALL THE MISERY THAT IS BEING SUFFERED BY THE POOR MEN," OR SOME THING OF THAT IN SUBSTANCE----I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO GIVE THE WORDS---IS, ON ACCOUNT OF THE PECULIAR GOVERNMENT THAT WE HAVE," SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.

A HE DID NOT SAY SO. HE SAID: "WAS BECAUSE OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS CALLED GOVERNMENT.

Q THE INSTITUTIONS CALLED GOVERNMENTS?

A YES SIR.

Q THEN IT WAS HE SAID THAT ALL OF THE LAST WINTER HAD LIVED ON SNOW-BALLS AND HE DID NOT PROPOSE TO LIVE ON SNOW BALLS THE WINTER

TO COME?

A YES.

Q WHAT DID HE SAY HE WAS GOING TO LIVE ON THE NEXT WINTER?

A HE DID NOT TELL ME.

Q HE DID NOT SAY. NOW, IF SNOW BALLS HAD PROVED UNSATISFACTORY HE LEFT YOU TO GUESS WHAT HE EXPECTED TO EAT IN THE WINTER TO COME?

A I PRESUME SO.

Q DID HE SAY THAT HE INTENDED TO ROB?

A HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING FURTHER AT THAT TIME.

Q DID HE SAY THAT HE INTENDED TO PLUNDER AND STEAL? DID HE SAY ANYTHING--- THAT HE INTENDED TO DO ANYTHING?

A NOTHING MORE ON THAT OCCASION EXCEPTING WHAT I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU.

Q THAT HE DID NOT PROPOSE TO LIVE ENTIRELY ON SNOWBALLS IN THE WINTER TO COME. THAT BRINGS US TO APRIL 30TH. NOW, THE APRIL 30TH MEETING AS YOU REMEMBER WAS AT THE --- NOT AT THE HAYMARKET, BUT AT THE MARKET SQUARE. YOU KNOW WHERE THE HAYMARKET IS?

A I DO.

Q AND YOU KNOW WHERE THE MARKET IS?

A YES.

Q HOW FAR APART ARE THEY?

A PERHAPS HALF A MILE.

Q HALF A NILE AND THE RIVER RUNNING BETWEEN THEM?

A YES.

Q THE MARKET SQUARE IS ON THE SOUTH SIDE AND THE HAYMARKET SQUARE IS ON THE WEST SIDE?

A YES SIR.

Q YOU WERE THERE AT THAT MEETING?

A I WAS.

Q AND PARSONS STATED THE OBJECT OF THE MEETING?

A YES SIR.

Q IN WHICH HE SAID: "WE HAVE MET TO CELEBRATE THE INAUGURATION, OR THE DEDICATION OF THE BOARD OF TRADE." SOME THING TO THAT EFFECT---SOME HUMEROUS REMARK?

A HE SAID: "WE HAVE MET TO CONSIDER AS TO THE BEST WAY OF CELEBRATING THE DEDICATION."

Q WAS THAT ALL HE SAID SUBSTANTIALLY AND PRACTICALLY?

A "AND TO GIVE THE WORKINGMEN OF CHICACO AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS ON THE MATTER.

Q IS THAT SUBSTANTIALLY ALL THAT YOU REMEMBER?

A THAT WAS THE SUBSTANCE OF ALL I REMEMBER AT THAT TIME.

Q AT THAT TIME---THAT IS, UNTIL AFTER THE PROCESSION?

A NO, UNTIL AFTER FIELDEN HAD SPOKE.

Q WELL, THEN, FIELDEN SPOKE AND HE MADE A GENERAL SPEECH IN REGARD TO THE WORKINGMEN ARMING THEMSELVES AND SCATTERING, SWEEPING THE CAPITALISTS BEFORE THEM, SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT?

A YES.

Q DID HE SAY WHEN HE WANTED TO MAKE THAT SWEEP?

A NO SIR, NO TIME WAS MENTIONED.

Q NO TIME WAS FIXED; NOTHING SAID ABOUT THE HAYMARKET?

A NO SIR.

Q OR THE 1ST OF MAY?

A NOT AT THAT TIME.

Q ON THAT OCCASION?

A NO, NOT ON THAT OCCASION.

Q THEN PARSONS GOT UP AND HE HAD SOMETHING MORE TO SAY, THEN HE TALKED ABOUT----I WILL ASK YOU WHETHER HE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THAT THE LABORING MEN COULD NEVER GET THEIR RIGHTS BY LEGISLATION?

A HE MIGHT HAVE SAID SO.

Q HE DID SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT THEY SHOULD SET SOMETHING ASIDE TO BUY A PISTOL FOR THEIR PROTECTION?

A HE SAID AS I STATED, THAT EACH WORKINGMAN SHOULD SAVE SO MUCH A WEEK OF HIS WAGES UNTIL HE HAD ENOUGH TO BUY A COLT REVOLVER OR A WINCHESTER RIFLE.

Q DIDN'T HE SAY IN THIS CONNECTION THAT HE WAS SATISFIED THAT THE LABORING CLASS WOULD HAVE TO MEET FORCE WITH FORCE?

A HE SAID THIS---THAT THE WORKING CLASS. THE ONLY WAY THEY WOULD GET THEIR RIGHTS WOULD BE AT THE POINT OF THE BAYONET.

Q BECAUSE HE SAID THAT THE POLICE AND THE MILITIA WERE IN THE

EMPLOY OF THE CAPITALISTS AND THEY MUST EXPECT THAT THEY WOULD USE THEM AGAINST THEM, DIDN'T HE?

A HE HAS SAID SO FREQUENTLY.

Q FREQUENTLY SAID SO?

A YES SIR.

Q NOW, I WILL ASK YOU WHETHER THERE WAS ANYTHING MORE SAID BY MR. PARSONS IN REGARD TO THE BOARD OF TRADE THAN YOU HAVE STATED, OR BY MR. FIELDEN?

A IT WAS SAID---THE BOARD OF TRADE WAS FREQUENTLY REFERRED TO, BOTH BY MR. FIELDEN AND MR. PARSONS.

Q WELL, DID THEY PROPOSE ANY VIOLENCE THAT NIGHT ON THE BOARD OF TRADE THAT YOU HEARD IN THEIR SPEECHES?

A NO SIR. THERE WAS NO DIRECT PROPOSAL.

Q NO PROPOSAL OF VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND?

A NO, NOT THAT I HEARD, AND NOT THAT I KNOW OF.

Q YOU AT THAT TIME WAS A MEMBER OF THE ARMED SECTION, WASN'T YOU?

A NO.

Q BUT YOU WAS A MEMBER OF THEIR SOCIETY?

A WELL AT THAT TIME THERE WAS NO ARMED SECTION FORMED.

Q NO ARMED SECTION. BUT YOU WAS A MEMBER OF THEIR SOCIETY?

A I WAS A MEMBER OF THEIR GROUP.

Q YOU WERE ALSO A DETECTIVE EMPLOYED BY PINKERTON?

A I WAS.

Q YOU WERE THERE FOR THE PURPOSE OF HEARING WHAT THESE MEN SAID AND REPORTING IT, AND YOU DID REPORT IT?

A YES.

Q NOW, ALL THAT WAS SAID ABOUT ANY VIOLENCE YOU HAVE TOLD HERE, THAT YOU REMEMBER?

A YES; THAT WAS SAID IN MY PRESENCE.

Q WELL, YOU HEARD ALL THE SPEECHES THAT WERE MADE THERE BY THEM, DIDN'T YOU?

A I MAY NOT HAVE HEARD THEN ALL.

Q WELL, YOU HEARD PARSONS WHEN HE FIRST GOT UP AND STATED THE OBJECT OF THE MEETING?

A YES.

Q YOU HEARD FIELDEN WHEN HE SPOKE?

A YES.

Q AND PARSONS WHEN HE REPLIED?

A YES.

Q AND YOU WERE THERE UNTIL THE PROCESSION MOVED?

A I WAS.

Q AND THERE WASN'T A WORD SAID ABOUT ANY VIOLENCE TO BE USED IN ANY MANNER, SHAPE OR FORM IN OR ABOUT THE BOARD OF TRADE MEETING THAT NIGHT, THAT YOU HEARD?

A NOT THAT I HEARD.

Q THEN YOU DID NOT HEAR THESE MEN SAY: "THERE IS TWENTY DOLLAR

SUPPERS TO BE EATEN DOWN THERE; WE WILL GO DOWN THERE, FORCE OURSELVES IN AND HELP OURSELVES?"

A THAT WAS SAID.

Q WHO BY?

A THAT WAS SAID BY PARSONS.

Q WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THAT BEFORE, WHEN WE ASKED YOU WHAT WAS SAID?

A WELL, THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL SAID.

Q WHY DIDN'T YOU RECORD IT?

A IT IS RECORDED.

Q THE 30TH OF MAY, PARSONS, SAID WHAT, NOW?

A WELL, IF YOU GIVE ME MY NOTES.

Q BUT DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT HE SAID, INDEPENDENT OF YOUR NOTES?

A HE SAID---HE HAD DESIGNATED THE BOARD OF TRADE AS A ROOST OF THIEVES AND ROBBERS.

Q WHAT ELSE?

A THERE WAS A GOOD DEAL MORE SAID, BUT I CAN NOT REMEMBER DISTINCTLY WHAT DID TAKE PLACE.

Q DON'T REMEMBER?

A NO, WHAT WAS SAID. I COULD NOT PRETEND TO SAY, UNLESS YOU GIVE ME MY NOTES.

Q TELL US WHAT WAS SAID ABOUT THE $20 SUPPERS, AS NEAR AS YOU CAN REMEMBER?

A IT WAS SAID THAT THERE WERE THESE BOARD OF TRADE MEN SITTING

DOWN TO THEIR $20 SUPPERS, WHILST THE POOR MEN WHILST THE POOR WORKINGMEN HAD TO STARVE.

Q WHAT ELSE DID HE SAY ABOUT THE $20 SUPPERS?

A WELL THERE WASN'T A GOOD DEAL SAID ABOUT IT.

Q ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR THAT YOU REMEMBER?

A NO SIR. NOT THAT I REMEMBER.

Q NOW, I ASK YOU AGAIN, WHETHER HE SAID, OR FIELDEN, OR ANY OTHER MAN IN YOUR PRESENCE THAT "WE WILL GO DOWN THERE BY FORCE, FORCE OURSELVES INTO THE BOARD OF TRADE AND EAT THE $20 SUPPERS WHICH WE HAVE AS GOOD A RIGHT TO AS THEY HAVE."

A I NEVER HEARD THEM SAY SO.

Q YOU NEVER HEARD THAT REMARK?

A I SAY NO.

Q WERE YOU IN COURT YESTERDAY?

A I WAS NOT.

Q AND YOU WAS THERE ALL THE TIME LISTENING WITH A VIEW OF MAKING A WRITTEN MEMORANDUM, AND MAKING A REPORT?

A LISTENING, YES.

Q AND YOU SAY YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF EITHER FIELDEN OR PARSONS, OR ANYBODY ELSE SAYING "NOW, WE WILL GO TO THE TUNE OF THE MARSAILLES HYMN, DOWN TO THE BOARD OF TRADE, BREAK OUR WAY IN AND DEVOUR THE $20 SUPPERS, WHICH ARE OURS AS MUCH AS THEIRS?" YOU DID NOT HEAR THAT?

A I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I HEARD STATED.

Q DID YOU HEAR THAT?

A NO SIR, NOT AS YOU HAVE STATED IT.

Q NOW, YOU HEARD FIELDEN, OR ONE OF THEM SAY THAT "WHILE THE BAND PLAYS WE WILL SING THE MERSAILLES HYMNN"?

A YES.

Q THAT YOU UNDERSTAND TO BE THE FRENCH NATIONAL AIR, DON'T YOU?

A YES, I UNDERSTAND SO.

Q THE 30TH DAY OF MAY WAS DECORATION DAY. WAS THAT THE DAY IN WHICH THE BOARD OF TRADE WAS OPENED, DO YOU REMEMBER?

A NO SIR.

Q WHAT WAS IT?

A IT WAS THE 30TH OF APRIL, THE BOARD OF TRADE WAS OPENED.

MR. GRINNELL---THAT IS THE ONE YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT?

A THE 29TH.

MR. FOSTER---YES, THE 30TH OF APRIL. THEN THE NEXT MEETING ACCORDING TO MY MEMORANDUM, WAS THE 30TH OF MAY, ON DECORAT I ON DAY?

A YES.