Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1 Examination by Mr. Foster and Mr. Grinnell. Challenged for cause by the Defense, overruled by the Court, and exception stated by the Defense. Accepted as a juror in the case of Illinois vs. August Spies et al.
Examination of Theodore Denker, 1886 June 24.
Volume B, 112-122, 11 p.
Denker, Theodore.
Shipping clerk for Henry W. King & Company.
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[Image, Volume B, Page 112]
THEODORE DENKER.
MR. FOSTER WHAT IS YOUR NAME?
A THEODORE DENKER.
Q WHERE DO YOU LIVE?
A WOODLAWN PARK, IN THE TOWN OF HYDE PARK.
Q HOW FAR SOUTH FROM THE COURT HOUSE. CROSS THE RIVER?
A SEVEN MILES.
Q DID YOU LIVE THERE ON THE 4TH OF MAY LAST?
A YES.
Q YOU HEARD OF THIS HAYMARKET MEETING I SUPPOSE?
A YES.
Q HAVE YOU FORMED AN OPINION UPON THE QUESTION OF THE DEFENDANTS GUILT OR INNOCENCE UPON THE CHARGE OF MURDER, OR ANY OF THEM?
A I HAVE.
Q HAVE YOU EXPRESSED THAT OPINION?
A YES.
Q YOU STILL ENTERTAIN IT?
A YES.
Q YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ AND WHAT YOU HEARD?
A I BELIEVE IT, YES.
Q IS THAT OPINION SUCH AS TO PREVENT YOU FROM RENDERING AN IMPARTIAL VERDICT IN THE CASE SITTING AS A JUROR UNDER THE TESTIMONY AND THE LAW?
A I THINK IT IS.
CHALLENGED FOR CAUSE.
MR. GRINNELL. IF YOU WERE TAKEN AND SWORN AS A
JUROR IN THE CASE, CAN'T YOU DETERMINE THE INNOCENCE OR THE GUILT OF THE DEFENDANTS UPON THE PROOF THAT IS PRESENTED TO YOU HERE IN COURT REGARDLESS OF YOUR HAVING ANY PREJUDICE OR OPINION?
A I THINK I COULD.
Q YOU COULD DETERMINE THEIR GUILT OR INNOCENCE UPON THE PROOF PRESENTED TO YOU HERE IN COURT, REGARDLESS OF YOUR PREJUDICE AND REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPINION, AND REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU HAVE READ?
A YES.
THE COURT. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN FAIRLY AND IMPARTIALLY TRY THE CASE AND RENDER AN IMPARTIAL VERDICT UPON THE EVIDENCE AS IT MAY BE PRESENTED HERE AND THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE COURT?
A YES; I THINK I COULD.
CHALLENGE FOR CAUSE OVERRULED & EXCEPTION.
MR. FOSTER. I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THE OPINION THAT YOU HAVE FORMED FROM READING THE PAPERS, AND FROM CONVERSATIONS, I BELIEVED YOU ANSWERED ME BEFORE THAT YOU HAD FORMED AN OPINION FROM READING AND HEARING CONVERSATIONS; THAT IS CORRECT, IS IT?
A YES, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT I READ IN THE NEWSPAPERS.
Q NO, BUT YOU BELIEVED ENOUGH TO FORM AN OPINION?
A YES, I FORMED AN OPINION.
Q WAS THAT OPINION PRINCIPALLY FROM WHAT YOU READ IN THE PAPERS, OR WAS IT FROM WHAT YOU HEARD ON THE STREETS.
A FROM WHAT I READ ENTIRELY.
Q THEN YOU DID BELIEVE ENOUGH OF WHAT YOU READ TO FORM AN
OPINION UPON THE QUESTION OF THE GUILT OR INNOCENCE OF THESE MEN OR SOME OF THEM?
A YES.
Q AND I BELIEVE YOU SAID YOU ALSO EXPRESSED YOUR OPINION WHICH YOU HAD FORMED TO OTHERS WITH WHOM YOU CONVERSED?
A YES; I HAVE EXPRESSED THAT OPINION.
Q DURING THE EXPRESSION OF THIS OPINION I WILL ASK YOU WHETHER YOU STATED IN SUBSTANCE TO THESE PERSONS OR ANY OF THEM THAT YOU BELIEVED ENOUGH OF WHAT YOU HAD READ TO FORM THE OPINION WHICH YOU HAD.
THE COURT. DID YOU IN ANY CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD SAY ANYTHING AS TO WHAT YOU BELIEVED OR NOT THE ACCOUNT WHICH WAS IN THE NEWSPAPERS WHICH YOU READ?
A NO SIR, I NEVER EXPRESSED AN OPINION IN REGARD TO WHETHER THE NEWSPAPERS WERE CORRECT OR NOT.
Q YOU NEVER DISCUSSED THAT MATTER AT ALL?
A NO SIR.
MR. FOSTER. WHAT DID YOU SAY YOUR BUSINESS WAS?
A I AM SHIPPING CLERK FOR HENRY W. KING & COMPANY, WHOLESALE CLOTHERS, 222 MADISON STREET CORNER OF FRANKLIN STREET.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN ENGAGED IN THAT BUSINESS?
A ABOUT TWO YEARS AND THREE MONTHS.
Q WHAT IS YOUR AGE?
A 27.
Q WHAT OTHER BUSINESS HAVE YOU FOLLOWED?
A PREVIOUS TO GOING THERE I WORKED IN THE UNITED STATES EXPRESS COMPANY.
Q IN WHAT CAPACITY?
A AS CONDUCTOR ON A WAGON.
Q WHAT IS YOUR AGE?
A 27.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN CHICAGO?
A 25 YEARS.
Q ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH ANY MEMBERS OF THE POLICE FORCE OF THE CITY OF CHICAGO THAT WERE PRESENT AT THE HAYMARKET MEETING ON THE OCCASION REFERRED TO?
A NO SIR.
Q HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY CONVERSATION WITH ANYONE THAT UNDER-TOOK TO DETAIL THE FACTS AS THEY OCCURRED AT THE HAYMARKET SQUARE, OR WHO CLAIMED THAY HAD BEEN THERE?
A NO SIR.
Q IS YOUR OPINION ENTIRELY MADE UP OF WHAT YOU HAVE READ DISTINGUISHED FROM WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD?
A ENTIRELY FROM WHAT I HAVE READ IN THE NEWSPAPERS.
Q HAVE YOU HAD MUCH CONVERSATION WITH OTHERS IN REGARD TO IT AT OR ABOUT YOUR PLACE OF BUSINESS OR ELSWHERE?
A WE HAVE CONVERSED ABOUT IT A NUMBER OF TIMES THERE IN THE HOUSE.
Q THERE IS WHERE YOU HAVE EXPRESSED, I PRESUME, THE OPINION WHICH YOU HAVE FORMED?
A YES SIR.
Q ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH ANY OF THE ATTORNEYS FOR THE PROSECUTION?
A I AM ACQUAINTED WITH MR. WALKER.
Q DID YOU EVER GO TO SCHOOL WITH HIM?
A NO SIR.
Q DID YOU HAVE BUSINESS RELATIONS WITH HIM OR SOCIAL?
A SOCIAL RELATIONS, ONLY.
Q DID YOU EVER LIVE NEAR HIM?
A WE BOTH LIVED ON THE NORTH SIDE WHEN WE WERE BOYS GOING TO SCHOOL. I NEVER WENT TO THE SAME SCHOOL WITH HIM.
Q DID YOU PLAY TOGETHER ON THE STREETS.?
A I DON'T THINK WE EVER DID.
Q YOU NEVER HAD A FIGHT, DID YOU?
A NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
Q HOW LONG HAS IT BEEN SINCE YOU HAD THIS INTIMATE ACQUAINTANCE WITH MR. WALKER?
A I MET MR. WALKER UP TO MY BROTHER IN LAW'S HOUSE I THINK LAST NEW YEARS DAY.
Q THE RELATIONS HAS ONLY BEEN CASUAL, AS I UNDERSTAND IT?
A YES.
Q YOU DON'T VISIT AT HIS HOUSE?
A NO SIR.
Q NOR HE AT YOURS?
A NO SIR.
Q ARE YOU A MARRIED MAN?
A NO SIR.
Q DO YOU LIVE WITH YOUR PARENTS?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SOCIALISM, ANARCHISM OR COMMUNISM?
A NO SIR, I DO NOT.
Q HAVE YOU ANY PREJUDICE AGAINST THIS CLASS OF PERSONS?
A I THINK I AM A LITTLE PREJUDICED AGAINST SOCIALISM. I DON'T KNOW THAT I AM AGAINST ANARCHISM. IN FACT, I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEIR PRINCIPLES ARE AT ALL.
Q I UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY THAT NOTWITHSTANDING THE OPINION WHICH YOU FORMED AT THE TIME YOU READ THE NEWSPAPER THAT YOU NOW ARE CONSCIOUS OF THE FACT THAT YOU CAN TRY THIS CASE AND SETTLE IT UPON THE TESTIMONY INTRODUCED HERE?
A YES, I THINK I COULD.
Q AND NOT BE CONTROLLED OR GOVERNED BY ANY IMPRESSION THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE HAD HERETOFORE?
A YES SIR.
Q AND THE LAW AS GIVEN BY THE COURT GOVERNING IT?
A YES SIR.
Q IN THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU HAVE HAD THERE AT THE STORE YOU SAY YOU HAVE EXPRESSED THE OPINION WHICH YOU HAVE FORMED BEFORE?
A YES SIR.
Q IS THAT A PREQUENT OCCURRENCE--- THAT YOU HAVE EXPRESSED THE OPINION WHICH YOU FORMED?
A WELL, I THINK I HAVE EXPRESSED IT PRETTY FREELY.
Q AS TO THE NUMBER OF TIMES---AS TO WHETHER IT WAS FREQUENT OR NOT?
A OH, NO; WE DID NOT BRING THE MATTER UP IN CONVERSATION VERY OFTEN, BUT WHEN WE DID WE GENERALLY EXPRESSED OUR OPINIONS IN REGARD
TO THE MATTER.
Q YOUR MIND WAS MADE UP FROM WHAT YOU READ, AND YOU HAD NO HESITANCY IN SAYING IT---SPEAKING IT OUT?
A I DON'T THINK I HESITATED.
Q WOULD YOU FEEL YOURSELF ANY WAY GOVERNED OR BOUND IN LISTENING TO THE TESTIMONY AND DETERMINING IT UPON THE PRE-JUDGMENT OF THE CASE THAT YOU HAD EXPRESSED TO OTHERS BEFORE?
A WELL, THAT IS A PRETTY HARD QUESTION TO ANSWER.
Q I WILL ASK YOU WHETHER ACTING AS A JUROR HERE YOU WOULD FELL IN ANY WAY BOUND OR GOVERNED BY THE JUDGMENT THAT YOU HAD EXPRESSED ON THE SAME QUESTION TO OTHERS BEFORE YOU WERE TAKEN AS A JURYMAN? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
A I DON'T THINK I WOULD.
Q THAT IS, YOU HAVE NOW MADE UP YOUR MIND, OR AT LEAST YOU HAVE FORMED AN OPINION; YOU HAVE EXPRESSED THAT FREELY TO OTHERS, NOW, THE QUESTION IS WHETHER WHEN YOU LISTENED TO THE TESTIMONY YOU WOULD HAVE IN YOUR MIND THE EXPRESSION WHICH YOU HAVE GIVEN TO OTHERS AND HAVE TO GUARD AGAINST THAT AND BE CONTROLLED BY IT ANYWAY?
A NO SIR, I DON'T THINK I WOULD. I THINK I COULD TRY THE CASE FROM THE TESTIMONY REGARDLESS OF THIS.
Q THEN YOU COULD GO BACK TO THOSE FELLOWS AND SAY THAT THE TESTIMONY WAS NOT WHAT YOU SUPPOSED?
OBJECTED TO.
OBJECTION SUSTAINED.
Q I UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY THAT YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN ENTIRELY
LAY TO ONE SIDE THE OPINION WHICH YOU HAVE FORMED: IT WOULD REQUIRE NO CIRCUMSTANCES OR EVIDENCE TO OVERCOME IT IF YOU WERE ACCEPTED AS A JURYMAN?
A I THINK I COULD LAY ASIDE THAT OPINION THAT I HAVE FORMED.
Q YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD?
A YES.
Q THAT IS YOUR HONEST JUDGMENT?
A YES.
Q HAVE YOU ANY CHURCH AFFILATIONS?
A NO SIR.
Q YOU ARE A MEMBER OF NO CHURCH?
A NO SIR.
Q ARE YOUR PARENTS PROTESTANTS IN FAITH?
A YES.
|FOUR JURORS TENDERED TO STATE.|
EXAMINTATION OF THEODORE DENKER BY MR. GRINNELL.
Q WHERE WERE YOU BORN?
A IN MINNESOTA.
Q ARE YOUR PEOPLE LIVING OUT AT WOODLAWN?
A YES. MY MOTHER IS.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN THIS COUNTY?
A IN COOK COUNTY 25 YEARS.
Q YOU ARE 27 YEARS OLD?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE DEFENDANTS?
A NO SIR.
Q DID YOU EVER SEE THEM BEFORE?
A NO SIR.
Q YOU ARE SHIPPING CLERK AT HENRY W. KING & COMPANY'S?
A YES SIR.
Q WHAT POSITION?
A SHIPPING CLERK.
Q WHO IS THE HEAD SHIPPING CLERK?
A I AM THE ONLY SHIPPING CLERK.
Q DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE COUNSEL UPON THE OTHER SIDE.
A NO SIR.
Q YOU HAVE MEN UNDER YOU ASSISTING YOU IN SHIPPING?
A NO; THERE IS NO MEN UNDER ME.
Q DO YOU BELONG TO ANY LABOR ORGANIZATION?
A NO SIR.
Q YOU STATED. I BELIEVE, THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT ANARCHISM
OR COMMUNISM, AND THEREFORE YOU COULD NOT TELL WHETHER YOU HAD A PREJUDICE OR NOT?
A NO SIR, I DO NOT.
Q BUT YOU HAVE READ SOMETHING ABOUT SOCIALISM?
A YES SIR.
Q DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE MAINTENANCE OF THE LAWS OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES?
A YES SIR, I DO.
Q HAVE YOU ANY SYMPATHY WITH ANY INDIVIDUAL OR CLASS OF INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE FOR THEIR PURPOSE OR OBJECT THE OVERTHROW OF THE LAW BY FORCE?
A NO SIR.
Q HAVE YOU ANY CONSCIENTIOUS SCRUPLES AGAINST THE INFLICTION OF THE DEATH PENALTY IN PROPER CASES?
A NO SIR.
Q IF TAKEN AS A JUROR IN THIS CASE DO YOU BELIEVE YOU COULD DETERMINE THE INNOCENCE OR GUILT OF THE DEPENDANTS UPON THE PROOF PRESENTED TO YOU HERE IN COURT, UNDER THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE COURT REGARDLESS OF EVERYTHING ELSE?
A YES, I THINK I COULD.
Q YOU KNOW NOW OF NO PREJUDICE OR BIAS THAT WOULD INTERFERS WITH YOUR DUTIES AS A JUROR?
A NO SIR.
Q ARE YOU A SOCIALIST, A COMMUNIST OR AN ANARCHIST?
A NO SIR.
Q YOU HAVE NO ASSOCIATIONS OR AFFILIATIONS WITH THAT CLASS OF PEOPLE, SO FAR AS YOU KNOW?
A NO SIR.