Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Eavesdropped on a conversation allegedly held by August Spies and Michael Schwab at the Haymarket on May 4, 1886. Claims to have heard them say "police" and "bombs". Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.K 314), "Revenge" circular (vol.K 312), street lights and/or lights on the wagon (vol.K 333), Spies, August (vol.K 314), alleged conversation between Spies and Schwab at Haymarket (vol.K 314), Schwab, Michael (vol.K 313), Fischer, Adolph (vol.K 355), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.K 315).
Testimony of Malvern M. Thompson (first appearance), 1886 July 27.
Volume K, 312-361, 50 p.
Thompson, Malvern M.
Clerk, Marshall Field & Co.
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a witness called on and sworn on behalf of the prosecution, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:
Q. What is your name?
A. Malvern M. Thompson.
Q. M.M.Thompson?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Wgere do you live?
A. I live at 190 South Peoria.
Q. What is your business?
A. I am at present in the dry goods business.
Q. Employed where?
A. Marshall Field & Co's.
Q. Where were you employed, or what business were you in prior to the 4th day of May?
A. I was running a grocery store at 108 S. Desplaines.
Q. Where were you that evening, on the 4th day of May last?
A. That evening I was near to W. M. Hoyt & Co's grocery house.
Q. Well, were you at the Haymarket square at any time that evening?
A. Yes, sir I walked west on Randolph Street about half past seven o'clock and there was somebody handed me a circular on the street there.
Q. A circular of what?
A. It had, "Revenge" on it and I forget what the other was. It was signed, "Our brothers" any how. And I walked along up to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines.
Q. Was it a circular similar to this (presenting the witness
a copy of the "Revenge" circular?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Well, at what time did you get up to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph?
A. About twenty-five minutes to eight. I there met Mr. Brazelton of Newton and we stood there talking for about fifteen minutes. I asked the time; it was then ten minutes to eight.
Q. Well, did you see any of the defendants there, or were any of the defendants pointed out to you there?
A I wanted to see them and asked Brazelton if he knew any of them, and just then Mr. Schwab came along.
Q. If he knew any of who; any of what?
A. Any of the speakers that was going to speak at that meeting.
Q. Was Schwab any one of these defendants?
A. He pointed him out. He came rushing along Desplaines Street in a great hurry.
Q. Was Schwab any one of these defendants?
A. Yes sir, the gentleman right there, the third from the end.
Q. Well?
A. He came along and I said, "I believe I will go down to the police station and see what is there."
THE COURT: Don't state that. Strike it out.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. What did you do then, and what did you see?
A. I then went over on the east side of Desplaines Street; I walked up and walked back again to the corner of the alley, or near the corner of the alley.
Q. Near the corner of what alley?
A. The alley just at the back of Crane Bros.
Q. Walked up on what street?
A. Walked on Desplaines Street near the corner of Lake, and came back and stood just back of this alley.
Q. Did you see any of these defendants then?
A. No sir, not at that time; I did later.
Q. Then what did you see?
A. Then Spies got up on the wagon and asked for Parsons. Parsons didn't respond. He then got down and the two men walked in the alley; that is, Schwab and Spies.
Q. Walked in what alley?
A. In the alley that I was standing near the corner of at the back of Crane Bros.
Q. Near which the wagon was situated?
A. Yes sir, the wagon was back a little further. And the first word that I heard between them was, "Pistols".
Q. Between who?
A. Between Schwab and Spies. And the next word was, "police". I think I heard, "police" twice, or "pistols" twice; one or the other, I then walked just a little nearer the edge of the alley; and just then Spies said: "Do you think one is enough, or hadn't we better go and get more?" There was no answer to that that I could hear. They then walked out of the alley and walked south on Desplaines Street and west on the north side of Randolph to Halsted, and
cut across the street and went over to the south west corner and were there about three minutes, came out of that crowd again, and came back.
Q. Who did?
A. Spies and Schwab.
Q. Well?
A. On the way up I didn't catch much of the conversation; but on the way back as they neared Union Street I just heard the word, "police" used again. And just then I went past them and Schwab said: "now, if they come, we will give it to them." Spies replied that he thought they were afraid to bother with them.
MR. ZEISLER: They were what?
A. Afraid to bother them. And then they came on down and Spies -- just before they got up near the wagon they met a third party; and they bunched right together there, south of the alley, and appeared to get right in a huddle; and there was something passed between them; what it was I couldn't say.
Q. Between whom?
A. Between Spies and the third man.
Q. Look at that picture (handing the witness a cabinet picture of Schnaubelt) and see if that resembles the man that you say made the third?
A. (After examining the picture) Yes sir, I think that is the man.
Q. Well, what did Spies do then?
MR. BLACK: Q. You say that is the third man, do you?
A. I think that his beard was a little longer than in this picture.
Q. You say this young man was the third man?
A. Yes sir,
this is the picture of the third man.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. What did Spies do then?
A. Spies then got up on the wagon, and commenced to make a speech.
Q. Did you see the third man afterwards that evening?
A. I saw him on the wagon.
Q. What did the third man do that you saw in that crowd of three?
A. Well, whatever they gave him, I don't know what it was, he stuck it in his pocket on the right hand side; and Spies got up on the wagon, and I think that he got up right after him.
Q. Did you notice anything about his position, -- the especial position and conduct of that third man afterwards?
A. Well, I noticed him sitting on the wagon.
Q. Anything in his hands?
THE COURT: Q. The question is, did you notice anything about his appearance?
A. I only noticed that he kept his hands in his pockets.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. How long did you see him there?
A. I saw him there for probably -- probably an hour, I should say.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I staid there until Mr. Fielden just commenced to speak, then I left.
Q. Then you were not there when the bomb was thrown?
A. No sir.
Q. You went away from there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you hear the report or sound of it?
A. No, sir. I didn't know anything about what happened until the next morning.
Q. Mr. Thompson, were you running a grocery store for yourself?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you quit that business for yourself, and hired out as a clerk?
A. I didn't say that I quit.
Q. You hired out as a clerk, didn't you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. For Marshall Field & Co.?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where?
A. At the retail store, coner of State and Washington.
Q. In what department?
A. In the hosiery department.
Q. In the hosiery department?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Well, did you close out your grocery?
A. I had it closed out for me.
Q. Oh, yes, the sheriff helped you to quit the business? Were you acquainted with Marshall Field before?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were closed out by a chattel mortgage, were you not?
A. No sir.
Q. By an execution?
A. By an execution.
Q. Under a judgment?
A. Yes sir, closed out on a bill.
Q. Yes, closed out by a bill, and then an execution, and then the sheriff, and then he had the grocery?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you know Marshall Field before?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you apply personally?
A. I did not.
Q. Did anybody apply for you?
A. I applied to Marshall Field for the first time.
Q. Did anybody apply for you?
A. Yes sir.
MR. GRINNELL: Q. You used to work for Marshall Field before?
A. I worked there before.
MR. BLACK: We object.
THE COURT: Let them go on without interruption.
MR. FOSTER: Q. Mr. Thompson, you never had seen any of these men before that night?
A. I never had saw any of them before in my life, no sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. And you first saw Mr. Schwab?
A. He is the first man that I saw.
Q. He was pointed out to you?
A. He was pointed out to me by Mr. Brazelton of Newton.
Q. Now which way was he going?
A. He was going north.
Q. You followed him?
A. No sir.
Q. What time was it when you saw him first?
A. It was, I
should say, about fifteen minutes of eight.
Q. Fifteen minutes of eight?
A. Yes sir, of eight when I first saw him.
Q. When did you see him next?
A. I saw him next, I should judge at a quarter past eight.
Q. Where was he then?
A. Then he was with Mr. Spies.
Q. Where was he then?
A. In the alley.
Q. Crane's alley?
A. Well, when I first saw him, I saw him going in the alley.
Q. When you first saw him you saw him going in the alley. Was there a crowd congregating at that time?
A. There was a crowd there, yes.
Q. Where were you when you saw him going in the alley?
A. I was standing right near, or alongside of it.
Q. You were not in the alley?
A. No sir.
Q. Alongside of it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. South or north?
A. North.
Q. South or north of the wagon in which Spies was talking first?
A. I was standing up against the building.
Q. Against the building?
A. Yes sir.
Q. So you couldn't see down the alley?
A. No sir, I couldn't see down the alley unless I turned my face to it.
Q. Was that the first time that you had seen Spies?
A. That was the first time that I had seen Spies until he
got up on the wagon.
Q. That was the first time that you saw him?
A. That was the second time.
Q. When was the first time?
A. The first time was when he got up on the wagon.
Q. That was the first time that you had ever seen him?
A. That was the first time that I had ever seen him.
Q. Who did you enquire of as to who it was?
A. I couldn't tell you who.
Q. Now were you specially interested in knowing Schwab and Spies at that time?
A. Not especially. I wasn't especially interested; just only had a mere curiosity.
Q. Only had a mere curiosity?
A. That is all.
Q. Mr. Spies got up and enquired for Parsons and then got out of the wagon?
A. Yes sir, it was only just a minute or so lapse of time.
Q. He didn't go north when he got out of the wagon?
A. No sir.
Q. He didn't go up to Sepf's Hall?
A. No sir.
Q. He got down off the wagon, and went into the alley?
A. He went into the alley back of Crane's.
Q. You were standing near the alley at that time?
A. Yes sir, a little further north.
Q. How much further north?
A. I was probably three feet
at farthest, and I moved down to within half a foot.
Q. You were within three probably at farthest, and you moved down to within half a foot?
A. Yes, sir, of the alley.
Q. Now then when you saw Spies and Schwab go into the alley you trailed in after them?
A. No sir.
Q. You did not?
A. No sir.
Q. How far into the alley did they go?
A. Well, right around the corner of the alley.
Q. Right around the corner of the alley?
A. It couldn't have been more than two or three feet.
Q. You couldn't see them then?
A. I could if I had looked down the alley.
Q. You didn't look?
A. No sir.
Q. You didn't look at any time, either then or afterwards?
A. I did when they came out.
Q. You did when they came out?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When they came out there was three of them?
A. Only two.
Q. Only two?
A. Only two.
Q. Now then did you ever talk with Mr. Schwab?
A. I never did.
Q. Don't you know that Mr. Schwab can speak with but very little English, and he and Mr. Spies always talk German when they speak together?
A. No sir.
Q. You don't know that?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever speak German?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear him speak German?
A. I never heard him speak German, but I heard him speak in English once.
Q. On that occasion, the conversation you have been telling about was in English?
A. It was in English, because I didn't understand German.
Q. Anything that you would hear, of course, would be in English?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Thompson what was the conversation; what was the thread of it; what was the narrative of it?
A. Well, the first word that I heard was "pistols", and then "police".
Q. Was that spoken in German or English?
A. That was spoken in English, I understood it that way, anyhow.
Q. Now then what were the other words; what were the words preceding "pistols"?
A. That was the first word that I heard.
Q. It started at "pistols"?
A. It started at -- that was the first word that I heard.
Q. And then "police"?
A. Then "police."
Q. Now what words were between those two?
A. I didn't hear any words.
Q. Just those two words?
A. Just those two words "police" and "pistols".
Q. Just those two words "police" and "pistols"?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And how long were they in there?
A. Probably two or
three minutes.
Q. Probably two or three minutes. The following conversation you could hear, for they were near enough to you?
A. I just caught that part. When I drew up to within a foot of the alley, I heard them ask, "Is one enough?"
Q. What did they say besides "pistols" and "police"?
A. They said, "Do you think one enough or had we better go for more?"
Q. One what?
A. I don't know.
Q. Who said that?
A. That was Mr, Schwab.
Q. They were not talking about Spies going out to Deering's to make a speech; and about the question of whether one speaker was enough, or whether they should send for more?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. What were they talking about? Did you learn from the conversation what they were talking about?
A. I didn't learn no sir, but of course I had my own opinions.
Q. Your opinion may not be worth a straw.
Q. At the time they were coming out, you heard only the two words "pistols" and "police" and nothing else?
A. Nothing else. That was when they were coming out.
Q. And you heard Spies and Schwab going together and talking together that night?
A. Well, I know --
Q. (Interrupting.) I ask you if you heard Spies and Schwab talking together that night?
A. Will you let me answer you? You can't wait.
Q. I will if you will answer in a correct way?
A. Well, the fact that I never saw --
(Interrupting) I didn't ask you about the fact that you never saw: I ask you do you swear now to this jury that you heard Spies and Schwab talking together that night?
A. That first man and third man I did. (pointing to Spies and Schwab.)
Q. You do swear that?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And that they spoke in English?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were before the coroner's inquest were you not?
A. I was, yes sir.
Q. And testified?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You didn't tell this before the coroner, did you?
A. I think I did.
Q. What say?
A. I think I did.
Q. You think you did?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your name is M. M. Thompson?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now you remember of talking -- you remember of testifying for the coroner?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Testifying in regard to what you now claim you heard the night before?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now was all the conversation that you heard between these
men, all that you say you heard, in the English language?
A. It was in English or I couldn't understand if it was in German.
Q. Now then you heard no words spoken in German?
A. Some, I did.
Q. In this same conversation?
A. I did, going up Randolph Street.
Q. I am not talking about Randolph Street. I am talking about around the corner there; when you were there at the corner; where you say you were at the corner?
A. No sir.
Q. You heard no words spoken in English?
A. I heard no words spoken in English.
Q. Now, before the coroner didn't you testify as to the words, "revolver" and "pistols" and say that a part of the conversation was in German, and that you couldn't understand it?
A. I did not.
Q. You didn't use that language before the coroner?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you know Mr. Schwab's voice at that time?
A. No, I can't say that I did know his voice.
Q. Did you know Mr. Spies voice at that time?
A. No, only from what I heard him ask on the wagon.
Q. Well, did you know it enough so you could recognize his voice?
A. Yes, sir, I think I did.
Q. Which one was it said "revolver."
A. I think it was
Speies.. He said "pistols".
Q. "Pistols". Which one was it said "police"?
A. He did.
Q. You didn't see him when he said it?
A. No, I didn't see him. I wasn't looking directly at him.
Q. The corner of the building was in the way?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You couldn't see him without going out there?
A. Without putting my head around the corner.
Q. Then as a matter of fact, as I understand, your testimony is they went into the alley out of sight of you, from where you then stood?
A. They may have been out of sight, but not out of hearing.
Q. Did I ask you whether they went out of hearing? Now answer my questions and we will get along swimmingly.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did they go out of sight when they went into the alley?
A. They went out of sight when they went into the alley, yes sir.
Q. Now, how long was it after they went into the alley and went out of sight that you heard this conversation?
A. It was all done in three minutes, I should judge.
Q. Now then, how long was it after they went into the alley and went out of sight that you heard the first remark?
A. About a minute and a half.
Q. About a minute and a half. Now then, they go into the
alley and out of sight. (Counsel produces his watch) Now the watch begins to go. I am going to wait a minute and a half. Then they must have been talking for a minute and a half in there, before they came out for they were probably three minutes altogether; were they?
A. I presume they were. It was about three minutes, I should judge, from the time that I first saw them go in, until they came out.
Q. Yes, you have answered my question. Then they came out and went to where the wagon was?
A. No sir, they came out and walked south on Desplaines Street.
Q. They came out and walked south on Desplaines Street to Randolph, then you followed them?
A. I followed them from the time they went out.
Q. Yes, you followed them when they went out?
A. Yes, within a few feet behind them.
Q. You had no particular object in view in finding out who it was that was going to speak that night on that occasion, had you?
A. Not necessarily, no sir.
Q. You were not employed as a detective, were you?
A. No sir, just out of mere curiosity.
Q. Pure and mere curiosity?
A. That is all.
Q. And you did go up there by the wagon again from which you understood the speaking was to take place as a matter of curiosity to hear what the speakers said?
A. Yes, I wanted
to hear one of them.
Q. Now then Mr. Spies had already been into the wagon, called for Mr. Parsons, and said he would go and get him, hadn't he?
A. I heard him ask if Mr. Parsons was in the crowd.
Q. Yes. Didn't he say that he would go and get him?
A. That is all I heard.
Q. You didn't hear him say that he would go and get him?
A. I didn't hear him say that.
Q. You didn't see him get out of the wagom immedoately, and go to wards Zepf's Hall?
A. No sir.
Q. You didn't see that?
A. No sir.
Q. Now what part of the alley did they go in from; from the south part of the alley of the north part of the alley, when they went in. How is that?
A. Probably towards the north of the alley. It was probably towards the north of the center of the alley.
Q. I don't want any probably about it. If you know what part of the alley they went in, I want you to tell me?
A. I say probably north of the center of the alley.
Q. They didn't go in close by the building?
A. No, they didn't go close to the building; that is, when they walked in.
Q. Where did they come out? What part of the alley; on the south side of the alley?
A. They cam out just about the center of the alley. They walked south west.
Q. They walked south coming out on Desplaines Street?
A. Yes, but in coming out of the alley, they would walk south west.
Q. That is they would turn the corner south coming out of the alley. They cut off the corner?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Without going to the center of the sidewalk like a military company in marching south, they cut off the corner?
A. Yes sir, but starting at the edge of Crane Bros. building they came out to the edge on the side of the alley, and they would naturally walk south west.
Q. I didn't ask you how they would naturally walk, but how did they walk?
A. They walked south west.
Q. Now did you hear any conversation after you saw them emerge from the alley, right then, when you saw them go south?
A. No sir.
Q. As they started to go down south?
A. No sir.
Q. As they started to go down south you trailed after them - trailing after them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you were following up pretty close?
A. Yes sir, I started pretty close and in fact in one place I was pretty close alongside of them.
Q. You intended to hear the speeches of course?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Yet you followed them away?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Without any more interest, than just as a looker on?
A. Well, I thought probably at that time speeches were going to be held at some other place.
Q. Had you heard the announcement that the meeting was going to be held anywhere else?
A. No sir.
Q. Well, how far did you follow them?
A. I followed them down on Desplaines to Randolph.
Q. Now what time was it then?
A. Oh, it was a quarter past eight.
Q. A quarter past eight still?
A. About that.
Q. There they met and separated, didn't they?
A. No sir.
Q. What did they do after that?
A. They walked west on Randolph Street to Halsted.
Q. And you trailing after them all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did anybody else go besides you?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. The crowd was up, about the wagon wasn't it? The principal crowd was at the wagon?
A. No sir, I can't say it was. The principal crowd was on Randolph Street.
Q. Wasn't it in a place where a large number of men were collected in a bunch about the wagon where Parsons had been called for?
A. Yes, there were more there.
Q. That is true?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You went down south to Randolph and west on Randolph to Union some blocks?
A. Two blocks.
Q. Two blocks?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And those two men were going along, and you were trailing along after them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Part of the time beside of them, part of the time ahead and past them; but all the time close to them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Well, when they came down there two blocks there wasn't much of a crowd at that end, were there?
A. Yes, there was a few people there.
Q. There was a few people there, but I say, there wasn't much of a crowd?
A. No sir.
Q. And still you were tagging after them looking for the meeting?
A. Yes sir.
Q. No other object than looking for the meeting?
A. No sir.
Q. Just simply to find where the crowd or the audience were assembled, you were tagging after them two blocks?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you got down there, there was nobody there except probably two or three men?
A. There was probably twenty or thirty.
Q. Just as you would see here at the bridge any moment; a situation like that?
A. Yes sir.
Q. There was no speeches there, no wagons, no dry goods boxes, nor obstructions, was there?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Then that would make nearly two blocks and a half that you had been following after these men?
A. Oh, we walked two
blocks and a half west, and the same back.
Q. Two blocks and a half west, and two blocks and a half back?
A. And the same back. That would make about five blocks altogether.
Q. You went with them; did they see you?
A. I don't know as they did.
Q. Nothing to prevent their seeing you?
A. Nothing whatever
Q. Now when was it that you heard the next conversation with them after you started trailing after these two men?
A. Well, it was near Union Street.
Q. Where is that?
A. That is between Desplaines and Halsted.
Q. That was after you had gone half a block south, and a whole block west?
A. I had gone a half a block west. It was on my way back.
Q. Now you were right close up to them all this time?
A. Oh I wasn't right close to them.
Q. Well, you were either walking just behind them, just beside of them, or just in front of them all the time?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you had gone half a block south, half a block west and a block back?
A. Yes, a block back.
Q. Now when they were going on down the street, what were they saying -- going west I mean?
A. I couldn't hear a word
of what they did say, when they were going west.
Q. Were they talking in German?
A. No, I don't think they were, because I didn't hear anything, because I couldn't get close enough to hear.
Q. If you went by them and passed them and ahead of them, why couldn't you hear?
A. I didn't say that I went by them and ahead of them when they were going west. I got ahead of them at Union Street coming back.
Q. Didn't you get ahead of them going west?
A. No sir.
Q. And didn't you pass them as they went west?
A. I didn't pass them going west.
Q. Then they walked ahead of you, because you hadn't passed them going west, had you?
A. We all stopped on the south west corner of Halsted and they came out of the crowd, and I came out after them; so they got ahead of me.
Q. Then you were all in a bunch there together?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was it light there; were the street lamps lighted?
A. Yes sir., it was.
Q. And when they got down on Halsted Street, you say they met another man?
A. No sir.
Q. You don't say that?
A. No sir.
Q. Didn't meet anybody?
A. I say there was a crowd there.
Q. You say there was probably twenty-five people there on the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. There wasn't more than twenty-five, was there?
A. I
don't know exactly how many, I should judge twenty-five.
Q. Did they have any talk with that crowd, either of them?
A. I didn't see that they did.
Q. You were watching to see, weren't you?
A. Yes, but they were right in the thickest of the crowd, and I stood on the sidewalk.
Q. How far were you at that time, when they were in the thickest of the crowd of twenty-five people?
A. How far was I from there?
Q. Yes.
A. About ten feet.
Q. Did you hear either of them say a word?
A. I didn't hear either of them say a word.
Q. Then they started to go back?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Coming back, they came back right where you were, didn't they?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or very near where you were?
A. I was standing on the edge of the crossing on Randolph Street, and thay came on Halsted Street up to the crossing.
Q. How far from them were you when they started to go back?
A. Well, I was about six feet behind them.
Q. You were about six feet behind them?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you started right back?
A. I started right back.
Q. Then what were they talking about?
A. I didn't see them talking about anything just at that time.
Q. They didn't say a word?
A. No sir.
Q. They cam back a block you say, and you were tagging right along after them again?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You say there was nobody else following them besides you?
A. No sir.
Q. They didn't talk between themselves either in German or English?
A. Yes sir, they did.
Q. Now what was it they said?
A. I couldn't hear what they said until they came to Union Street and then I crossed right by them, or got near them and got past them.
Q. Was it light at that time so they could see you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you could see them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You could see their countenances, and see who they were, of course?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Had the same view of them as they had of you?
A. Exactly.
Q. Now what was the first thing they said?
A. The first thing was going down Randolph Street.
Q. At Union Street?
A. The first thing I heard him say -- Schwab say was, "Now if they come we will give it to them."
Q. Schwab said "Now if they come we will give it to them." Now why didn't you tell us that before?
A. I did.
Q. You told that before, here in your direct examination?
A. That is what I said.
Q. If who came?
A. I don't know who.
Q. That they would give it to whom?
A. I don't know who.
Q. Schwab said that?
A. Schwab said that; and Spies said he didn't think they would bother them because they were afraid.
Q. What language was that conversation in?
A. That was carried on in the English language.
Q. Then you had gone by them, and was just in front of them at that time, wasn't you?
A. Yes sir -- I wasn't exactly in front of them, no sir, I was behind them when I heard it first, but they kind of slacked and then I got by them.
Q. Then you say it was when you were going by them?
A. Yes on Union Street.
Q. Then you say you were going by them when Schwab made this remark?
A. Yes, sir; I was making my gait quicker to get by them.
Q. You were not by them?
A. No sir.
Q. Just then Schwab made this remark?
A. Schwab made that remark, and when I got about three feet by them, he finished it.
Q. How many feet?
A. Three feet.
Q. I suppose that you didn't gain much on them?
A. No sir, because they were walking pretty fast themselves.
Q. So you were just three feet altogether ahead of them, when you heard them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And it was light there?
A. Yes, the gas lamps were lit.
Q. And the store lamps were lit there?
A. Yes sir, I suppose they were, if there were any stores there. I didn't notice.
Q. And you were in plain sight of them, at least when this conversation took place?
A. Well, I don't know.
Q. Well, wasn't you then at the time this conversation took place in which Schwab said, "We will give it to them"; and Spies said, "I don't think that they will molest us, because they are afraid" in plain sight of them?
A. No sir.
Q. You were behind them?
A. I said I was going by them.
Q. You said you were going by them when Schwab made the remark that, "We will give it to them?"
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then you were just in front of them?
Q. Then you were not in front of them at the time Schwab made the remark, "We will give it to them"?
A. No sir.
Q. Then where were you when Schwab finished the remark, "We will give it to them?"
A. I was three feet in front of them when Schwab finished the remark.
Q. That is, at the time when Schwab finished this remark, "We will give it to them" you were three feet ahead of them?
A. Yes, but the remark started when I was behind them.
Q. What was the remark?
A Spies said -- or Schwab started and said, "Now when they come we will give it to them."
Q. Now did he have to speak it very fast?
A. No sir, he didn't, he spoke it just about that fast.
Q. Now just speak it about as he did?
A. (Witness repeats the remark.)
Q. Just in an ordinary tone?
A. Just about.
Q. Not a loud tone?
A. Well, nothing extraordinarily loud.
Q. Nothing extraordinarily loud?
A. Nothing more than anybody would carry on in an ordinary street conversation.
Q. Well, loud enough for you to hear it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And then Spies replied; and then you were ahead of them when Spies spoke, wasn't you?
A. Yes, sir; I was ahead.
Q. Then you were in plain view of them at the time?
A. Yes sir; I think I was in plain view.
Q. Spies made the remark, "I don't think they will, because they are afraid". Now you still followed along after them?
A. Yes, I still followed along ahead of them.
Q. Well, about how much ahead?
A. Well, then, when I got there I came on down Desplaines Street.
Q. How far ahead?
A. Probably when I got to the corner of Desplaines Street I was ten or fifteen feet ahead.
Q. Yes, but you were within hearing distance just the same?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you hear any talk that took place between Mr. Schwab and Mr. Spies in their conversation down there, other than
what you have told that occurred at Union Street?
A. Nothing whatever.
Q. Now you were sworn as a witness the very next day before the coroner, at the examination before the coroner?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I will ask you whether you stated one word in that examination about over hearing the conversation between Spies and Schwab at Union Street?
A. I did, at or about Union Street.
Q. You swear that you did?
A. I did.
Q. Before the coroner?
A. If I didn't then --
Q. Never mind whether you didn't or not now: Do you remember that you did?
A. I do.
Q. That is all right. And while Schwab said these words, "Now if they come we will give it to them", you passed from three feet behind them to three feet in fron of them?
A. I didn't say that, sir.
Q. Well, will you tell us what you said, or what the truth was?
A. I said I was about to pass them.
Q. Yes, you were behind them, but attempting to pass them?
A. I may have gone two three or four or five feet before I came past them; and then it may have only been two feet. I don't just remember the distance.
Q. You were behind them when Schwab commenced to speak?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And then you were three feet ahead of them when Schwab finished his remark?
A. When Spies had finished his remark.
Q. When Spies finished?
A. When he finished his remarks.
Q. Why, don't you know that you had passed by them, and was three feet ahead of them when Schwab had finished his remark and that Spies' was made while you were in front and in Spies' open sight?
A. No sir, I said nothing of the kind.
Q. I didn't ask you what you said. The court won't allow me to ask you that or I would ask you very quick. Is not that true that you passed them and got three feet ahead of them before Schwab finished all that he said; and Spies said all that he said when you were past them and got ahead of them three feet. Is not that true.
A. That is not the case.
Q. Very well then, we will leave the jury to determine what you said. Now, sir, Mr. Thompson, I will again ask you -- your name is M. M. Thompson?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Is that your signature Mr. Thompson (pointing)?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Is that your signature Mr. Thompson (pointing)?
A. I think it is.
Q. Well, have you any doubt of it?
A. No sir.
Q. It is your signature, is it?
A. It is, yes sir.
Q. Now I want to ask you Mr. Thompson, whether you said one word before the coroner in regard to a conversation at or
about Union Street, in regard to what you have testified to now?
MR. GRINNELL: You have already asked him that question and it has been answered. He said he did.
MR. FOSTER: Yes, but I want to call his attention to his signature.
THE WITNESS: I will answer again; I did.
Q. You started to say awhile ago that if you didn't?
A. I said if I didn't. I was going to say that it was an oversight on my part or else it was because nobody asked me any questions.
Q. You say that now?
A. No sir, I don't say that now, I say that I did say that before the coroner's inquest.
Q. You say that you did say it before the coroner's inquest?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then why were you going to volunteer the remark that if you didn't it was because we hadn't asked you?
Q. Now when you got back to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines which corner did you say that you stopped on when you say you were ten or fifteen feet ahead?
A. The north west corner.
Q. Mr. Schwab and Mr. Spies came up, didn't they?
A. Yes sir
Q. They were talking as they came up?
A. I can't say that they were.
Q. Which way did they go when they came to where you were standing?
A. They went right through the street.
Q. They went right through the street?
A. They didn't come directly to where I was standing.
Q. They started diagonally to the wagon?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Yes they started directly to the wagon?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You started after them?
A. No sir.
Q. You didn't start after them?
A. No sir.
Q. You stayed there at the corner?
A. I stayed there at the corner.
Q. Were they, or not walking together in company?
A. Yes sir., so far as I went after them.
Q. Did you go after them until they got on to the wagon?
A. No sir.
Q. That is the last you saw of them?
A. That was the last time that I saw Schwab, I saw Spies when he got up to make a speech.
Q. That was the last time you saw Schwab?
A. Oh, no, that wasn't the last time that I saw him that night.
Q. That was the last time that you saw him on that particular occasion until you saw him go out of sight?
A. That was the last time that I saw him until they were out of sight, and the third man met them.
Q. Now, they went towards the wagon and they went out of
sight, didn't they, from you?
A. Yes, after they met this third party they went out of sight.
Q. I am not asking you about the third party. Don't get into your story so far. But I say I suppose that they got out of your sight. They went towards the wagon until hey got out of sight?
A. No sir, they didn't get out of my sight.
Q. You kept them in sight?
A. I was almost to the wagon south of the alley -- almost to the alley.
Q. You stopped at the alley. When they got on to the wagon you didn't follow them?
A. I went on the sidewalk, and there they met.
Q. Will you answer my questions, or won't you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now sir, you stopped at the corner -- the north west corner of Desplaines and Randolph Streets and stood there as they passed, didn't you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And they went across lots -- across the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you after them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't you just say you did?
Q. Now then, if there are no further suggestions I want you
to tell the jury whether you followed them over to the wagon when they started to cross?
A. I stood on the corner when they came up; and when they came up they started across the street and I stood there just to let them cross the street. And I started after them because I wanted to get down to the wagon.
Q. They started across where?
A. They started across Desplaines.
Q. Right down to the sidewalk?
A. No sir.
Q. Did they go straight across the sidewalk?
A. They didn't go straight from there, they went slanting.
Q. Well, did they go to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph and cross the street to the east side of Desplaines Street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then they didn't go diagonally to the wagon?
A. They went diagonally across the street but not diagonally across to the wagon.
Q. Well, how much on the north did they go -- to the northward, as they went across the street?
A. Well, I can't tell how much to the northward they went.
Q. It was eastward? Wasn't it more eastward and northward?
A. No, I should say more northward than eastward.
Q. And you followed after?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Never let them go out of your sight?
A. They couldn't get out of my sight.
Q. I didn't ask you whether they could get out of your sight I asked you whether they did or not?
A. No sir.
Q. How near did you get to them?
A. I didn't catch up with them at all.
Q. How near did you get to where they were?
A. I was about as far as from here to that chair (pointing).
Q. In feet?
A. About eight or ten feet.
Q. Then you got within eight or ten feet of them. Now where were they when you got within eight or ten feet of them? A
A. They were standing on the sidewalk; they stopped right there.
Q. Right there, where?
A. Right about five feet above the south coner of the alley.
Q. That is, five feet south of the south line of Crane's alley?
A. Yes sir, five feet south; about that.
Q. Now south you mean, you don't mean north?
A. I mean south.
Q. You mean south?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they stopped there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, there was quite a crowd around there, wasn't there?
A. No sir.
Q. There wasn't any crowd there at all?
A. There was a good many people on the other side of the street -- on the west side of the street -- but there wasn't probably more than half
a dozen people on the east side of the street.
Q. It was light there?
A. The gas was lit there.
Q. Now, about this time what time had it got to be. Could you pass a judgment on that?
A. I don't believe it was more than twenty minutes past eight, or twenty-five.
Q. When you got up within eight or ten feet of them did you stop?
A. I did.
Q. And you looked at them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Within a distance of about ten feet you say?
A. Eight or ten feet.
Q. They were in plain view of you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were in plain view of them?
A. No sir.
Q. Eh?
A. No sir, they couldn't see me very well.
Q. They couldn't see you?
A. I don't think they did see me.
Q. You could see them perfectly plain, but they didn't see you perfectly plain?
A. They could see me if they looked up.
Q. Now, don't you know there are some electric lights there that light up the whole way, on the Lyceum building?
A. I think there are some electric lights there.
Q. And they would look towards the electric light if they looked towards you, wouldn't they?
Q. You were between them and the electric light, wasn't you?
A. I was, yes sir.
Q. And they stopped there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now then, what was the next thing that took place?
A. The next thing was that they met the third man there.
Q. They met the third man?
A. This man there (referring to picture of Schnaubelt).
Q. That is the man. They met Schnaubelt there?
A. They met Schnaubelt.
Q. Did you ever see Schnaubelt before?
A. I never did.
Q. Did you ever see that picture before?
A. I have, yes sir.
Q. Where?
A. I can't tell you whether it was Mr. Furthman that showed it to me.
Q. Or whether it was somebody else. Well, who showed it to you?
A. Well, I kind of think it was Mr. Furthman.
Q. That is he handed you the picture and asked you whether that wasn't the man that you saw meet Spies and Schwab, didn't he?
A. He did not.
Q. When was it that he showed you that picture?
A. I don't recollect when.
Q. About when?
A. It has been over a week ago I judge.
Q. A week ago?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, wasn't it a month or two months ago?
A. No, I don't think I saw -- no, I didn't see it a month ago.
Q. You didn't see it a month ago?
A. No, sir, it has been something over a week ago.
Q. The man you saw had longer whiskers than this picture, did he?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you know Mr. Schnaubelt?
A. No sir, I never saw him.
Q. And when that picture was shown you didn't know that it was Schnaubelt?
A. I didn't now know that it was the man.
Q. You didn't know whether it was a man?
A. I didn't know whether it was the man.
Q. Now, when the third party came up which way did he come from?
A. The third party came from the east.
Q. From the east?
A. From the east. This side of the alley. He must have been standing against the house, I should suppose, and he walked west on the sidewlk.
Q. He walked to the sidewalk to the front of the sidewalk?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Which way was his face then?
A. His back -- his face was towards the west and his back was towards where he came from.
Q. Then if you were diagonally across from the north west corner of Desplaines and Randolph Streets, was Schnaubelt facing you?
A. No sir, but the time that I -- I had my -- he had his back to me.
Q. He also had his back to you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, did they dress up in a line and rush into the alley with their backs to you?
A. No sir, they did not. One had his back south, one north and one east. That is about the way they stood.
Q. Which one had his back north?
A. Spies had his back north.
Q. You had come diagonally, right from the direction of Desplaines Street, right in the direction of where they were going and stopped?
A. After I got up on the sidewalk I walked after them some little distance and then came close to the house.
Q. What were they talking about when the three met there?
A. I didn't hear what they were talking about.
Q. They came diagonally across the corner and they came to a certain point and they stopped, and you stopped ten feet back of them, now didn't you?
A. The two came across.
Q. And you stopped ten feet back of them?
A. The other man came up there.
Q. I am not talking about the other man. You stopped ten feet back of them, didn't you; eight or ten feet from them?
A. I said eight or ten feet away from them, not back of them.
Q. You followed them right up on the line that they took.
You took the same angle that they did, didn't you?
A. I don't know as I did.
Q. Well, about the same?
A. I might have gone straight across. I don't know whether I went straight across or came diagonally across.
Q. You mightn have gone stright across east?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And they came diagonally east?
A. Yes sir, when they stopped.
Q. And they were within ten feet of you all the time?
A. I didn't say all the time, I said when they stopped they were within ten feet. I should judge so.
Q. You said you followed them right up?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you take the same trail that they took or did you go directly east, when they came up?
A. I didn't take the same trail.
Q. But you followed them right across?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Directly across the street?
A. No, I don't think I went directly across the street.
Q. Which way did you go?
A. I might have made an angle to the north, but probably not the same as they did, I don't think.
Q. But when they stopped you were within eight or ten feet of them?
A. Well, when they stopped I was probably more than that behind them. I got within ten feet of them and
then I stopped.
Q. You were on the sidewalk near the curb stone?
A. Yes sir.
Q. They were on the sidewalk near the curb stone?
A. They were on the sidewalk more to the curb from the street.
Q. So that you were within eight or ten feet of them you were directly south of these two men?
A. I wasn't south, I said partly south.
Q. Directly south?
A. Not directly south.
Q. What I ask is, you got up about near the curb stone, and not in the middle of the sidewalk, nearly directly south?
A. Yes, sir, I suppose it was nearly directly south.
Q Spies stood directly to the north?
A. Spies stood directly to the north which would bring his face to me.
Q. Then why couldn't he see you standing there?
A. I don't know but what he did.
Q. Didn't you say that you could see them and they couldn't see you?
A. I said I didn't know whether they stood where they could see me or not.
Q. So then Mr. Spies' back was from you to the north, and his face towards you at the time that you say that you were eight or ten feet from them?
A. He was looking south.
Q. And his face towards you?
A. Yes sir, his face towards me.
Q. So the electric light was beyond you?
A. Yes sir, I don't know that there was an electric light there.
Q. Well, now then, will you have the kindness to tell the jury again what was said there?
A. I didn't hear a word.
Q. Didn't hear a word?
A. Not a word.
Q. How long did you stand there and how long did they stand there?
A. About thirty seconds.
Q. Yes. And who was it that gave somebody something, and who was the somebody that received it, and what was the something that was given?
A. That I can't tell. I can tell that it was Spies that handed this man (indicating the picture of Schnaubelt) something. And this man put it into his pocket, and Spies got up on to the wagon and made a speech.
Q. Yes, but not right then did he?
A. Right then and there.
Q. No, no. Not right then and there. You don't mean that do you?
A. Just as quick as he could get to the wagon.
Q. Yes, but he went up north across the alley, and got up.
A. Well, it was only a short ways.
Q. And you saw Mr. Spies hand this man something?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And this something that this man received he put in his pocket?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now didn't you hear the word "bomb" at that time?
A. No
sir.
Q. Didn't you hear "police"?
A. No sir.
Q. Didn't you hear "knives and revolvers"?
A. No sir.
Q. Didn't hear anything?
A. No sir.
Q. He just took and put it down? Do you know whether it was a chew of fine cut?
A. I couldn't tell that.
Q. You don't know anything about that. You don't know where Spies got it?
A. I don't know.
Q. He didn't say anything when he hadned it to him?
A. I couldn't hear if he did.
Q. Now, have you told all that occurred at Union Street that you heard?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Have you told all that you heard in the alley?
A. I have
Q. Have you told all that you heard at any place?
A. I have told all that I know.
Q. All that you know?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the cross examination, while you have been undergoing examination by me, have you told all that you heard?
A. I believe I have told you everything; answered all your questions.
Q. Very well. Now then, I want to jog your memory then a little, and have you tell this jury when it was that the remark was made, "Will one be enough".
A. Well, sir, it was in the alley of Crane Bros. Crane Brothers' Alley I should call it.
Q. Now, was that after Schwab and Spies went down into the alley, and went back out of your sight?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You knew it was Mr. Schwab; you knew his name at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. He had been pointed out by Mr. Brazelton; that was the only way I knew him.
Q. That is the reason that you knew it was Schwab. That is, that you had been told it was Schwab?
A. I know that I was told that it was Schwab, and I know --
Q. (Interrupting) You know that that is the man?
A. I know that is the man.
Q. At the time that he went into the alley, you knew that he was called Schwab, didn't you?
A. Yes sir, I knew it was Schwab; at least I thought so.
Q. What?
A. At least I thought it was Schwab, and I found out afterwards that it was.
Q. I want to call your attention again to your testimony before the coroner's jury. Didn't you in your testimony before the coroner's jury, say that you saw Spies go into the alley with a man, and described the man that you saw go in and point out Fischer and say that you believed that that was the man that went in the alley with Spies?
A. I did not.
Q. Nothing of that kind? You told there at the coroner's jury, that it was Schwab, did you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Yes. All right. There is nothing like being positive. Now, in the alley, while Mr. Schwab and Mr. Spies was there, was there anybody else there with them?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Was there any one besides those two men went into the alley?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Was there any besides those two men came out of the alley together?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Did you see anybody besides those two conversing -- talking?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have any conversation?
A. No sir.
Q. Now, I want to ask you if you don't remember of meeting Mr. Fischer there; the man next to the gentleman that has whiskers?
A. Meeting him where?
Q. At the library room of the jail?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, I will ask you who was present at that interview?
A. I had no interview whatever with them.
Q. Who was present at the time you were there and saw him? Wasn't Mr. Furthman there?
A. Mr. Furthman, yes sir.
Q. Didn't you turn around to Mr. Fischer and say, "That man was with them in the alley"?
A. I did not.
Q. Nothing of that kind?
A. Nothing of that kind.
Q. Never designated Mr. Fischer as being the man that you had seen with these parties at that time?
A. I never did.
Q You said you didn't know him?
A I did.
Q You remember what you said, don't you?
A I said I didn't know him.
Q That he was a man that you didn't see in the alley or anywher else about that building?
A I didn't say that.
Q Now, if you have ever said anything else about Fischer, or in connection with Mr. Schwab or Mr. Spies, just tell us?
A I didn't say anything.
Q Now, this third man that you say he received something and put it in his pocket, where did you see him next?
A I saw him on the wagon.
Q Did you see Mr. Schwab on the wagon?
A No, sir I did not,
Q How long did Mr. Schnaubelt stay on the wagon?
A Probably an hour.
Q Did he leave then?
A I can't say whether he did or not.
Q Were you there when the bomb was exploded?
A I was not.
Q You were not there?
A No, sir.
Q Whereabouts do you live?
A I live at 190 South Peoria street.
Q How long have you lived there?
A A little over a week.
Q Where did you live before?
A At 185 South Green.
Q How long have you lived in Chicago?
A Six years--- not quite six years.
Q Where did you come from?
A I came from Lewistown, Pennsylvania.
Q Were you born and raised there?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was your business before you came here?
A I was clerking for an uncle of mine.
Q What kind of a clerk?
A Druggist's clerk.
Q Clerked in a drug store?
A Yes sir.
Q What did you next do when you first came to Chicago?
A Clerked for Marshall Field.
Q How long did you stay there?
A I stayed there a little over a year.
Q Then what did you do?
A I went to Carson, Pirie's.
Q How long did you stay there?
A I stayed there a little over a year, a little longer than I did at Marshall Field's.
Q Then what did you do?
A I went into business at 260 East Kinzie street, representing G. R. Freizenger, cigars.
Q Cigar business?
A Yes sir.
Q How long did you follow that business?
A I was in that business for two years-- a little over two years, I think.
Q Then what did you do?
A Last summer I went down east. I was gone east with my sister most of the summer.
Q That is you were on a vacation?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long were you down east? Down east at Pennsylvania, do you mean?
A Yes, sir, about three months.
Q Three months?
A About three.
Q Then when you came back what did you go at?
A When I came back I didn't go at anything directly.
Q What did you go at directly or indirectly?
A Nothing at all, directly or indirectly.
Q How long were you without doing anything?
A About, oh, I suppose, three or four weeks.
Q And then what did you go at?
A The grocery business.
Q Where was that, that you went into the grocery business?
A Last September, I think it was, or October.
Q And when did you cease the grocery business?
A In May.
Q You were in it from September until May?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you are with Marshall Field again?
A Yes, sir.
Q In the hosiery department?
A Yes, sir.
Q When was it that you ceased in the grocery business?
A Sometime in May, I can't-- I don't recollect the date.
Q Were you in the grocery business on the 4th of May?
A Yes, sir.
Q What time did you close your store?
A I closed up sometimes at ten o'clock.
Q At night?
A Yes, sir.
Q So then--- How far was the Haymerket from your store?
A Two blocks and a half.
Q Two blocks and a half?
A Let's see, three blocks and a half.
Q Did you keep clerks?
A I had one clerk.
Q What is your clerk's name?
A Joseph Kerl.
Q Are you a married man?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is your clerk's name?
A Joseph Kerl.
Q Where is he now.
A I don't know where he is now but I think he is working out on West Madison street.
Q At what business?
A Grocery business. An order clerk
Q Who for, do you know?
A I don't know who for, no. He is on west Madison street some place. Out in the four hundreds some place.
Q Now, as I understand you, at the time that you started on this trailing business and went the rounds, you and Spies and Fischer composed the party that went--- or Schwab, I mean, not Fischer--- and Schwab and Spies, and yourself composed the group that went back. There was no fourth party?
A Not that I saw.
Q If I understand you Mr. Thompson, you mean to say this: That immediately after Mr. Spies handed something to Mr. Schnaubelt which Mr. Schnaubelt took and put in his pocket there in your presence and in your sight, that immediately Mr. Spies, and as quick as he could, got upon the wagon and opened the meeting and the speaking began?
A Yes, very shortly afterwards.
Q Well, shortly. Did he go immediately. That is, did he, as soon as this little bunch was broken up, walk right to the wagon and open the meeting?
A Well, he got right up on the wagon and commenced to speak, but one or two or three minutes elapsed in the time.
Q Well, he spoke somewhere about fifteen or twenty minutes, didn't he?
A Yes, sir, he probably spoke over that I don't know.
Q Did you stay during the speech and all of them?
A No, sir, I left just as Mr. Spies got up -- just as he got up to speak.
Q Did Schwab get up on the wagon too?
A I didn't see him on the wagon at all.
Q Now, have you any means of fixing the time at which this meeting was opened?
A The only means I have is that I asked Mr. Brazelton the time and then it was ten minuts of eight; and I suppose that the meeting opened, as near as I can tell near half past eight or about. It may have been earlier or it may have been later, I couldn't say.
Q Now, how long a time was it after these two men that you have told about, came out of the aley and started on this tramp until Mr. Spies got onto the wagon, in your judgment?
A At the furthest it couldn't have been more than ten minutes.
Q It couldn't have been more than ten minutes at the firthest?
A No, sir.
Q Mr. Thompson, You saw me for the first time on Wednesday, the 5th day of May at the Central station?
Q I will put it in another form; I will ask you whether you did not on that day, and have not frequently thereafter, described to me a third person---
Q You were in jail and Fischer was pointed out to you?
A He was brought into the library, I believe.
Q You have said that you then said you never had seen him before?
A I said I had never seen him before.
Q Have you not also been shown at least a dozen photographs of other individuals and from them been asked to pick out the man whom you have described?
The court here adjourned until 10 o'clock to-morrow morning.