Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Cross examined by Mr. Foster. Re-direct by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.I 5510, plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.I 563), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.I 553), meaning of "Y" (vol.I 554), Neff's (Thoeringer) Hall (vol.I 559), Greif's Hall (vol.I 557), witnesses who were indicted for murder or conspiracy (vol.I 575), International Workingmen's Association (vol.I 571), Carpenters' Union (vol.I 551), Lingg, Louis (vol.I 550), Louis Lingg and bomb-making (vol.I 551), Engel, George (vol.I 570).
Testimony of William Seliger (first appearance resumed), 1886 July 21.
Volume I, 548-579, 32 p.
Seliger, William.
Carpenter; German immigrant.
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Cross- Examination of Mr. SELIGER by MR. FOSTER.
Q Please look at the letter now shown you and state whether it is in your handwriting?
A Yes it is.
Q When did you write that letter?
Q Probably four or five days after I had been discharged.
(Same marked for identification "Defendants' Exhibit 1")
Q You remember of writing this letter, do you?
A Yes.
Q Didn't you state at the time you wrote that letter that it was on the promise of your liberty that you made the statement, the same statement to which you have sworn this forenoon?
Objected to.
Q At or about the time you wrote this letter did you state that it was upon the promise of your liberty that you made the statement
which you testified to this forenoon?
Objected to.
Q Did you state at any time that you were promised your liberty and upon that promise you made the statement which you have sworn to today?
Objected to; objection sustained; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
Q You stated before dinner, if I remember, that no promises were made to you at the time you made your written statements to the officers, is that true?
A Yes; the statements that I made before dinnere are true; those I made previously are true.
Q Did you state to anyone that the statements which you did make were because if you made them you were promised your liberty?
A No. I made those statements voluntatily.
Q Do you remember what you wrote in the letter which has been shown you to Messrs. Salomon & Zeisler?
A Yes.
Q Were you in jail or at liberty at the time you wrote this letter?
A I was at liberty.
Q How long were you at liberty after that time?
A About two weeks.
Q Did you have a conversation with Salomon & Zeisler or either of them about the time this letter was written?
A No.
Q Didn't you write this letter voluntarily?
A Yes; I wrote it because I believed that I was not safe at liberty. I had been told at various times that I was a traitor.
Q After writing this letter didn't you carry it yourself and put it into the office of Salomon & Zeisler at night by passing it into the door?
A No. I sent it there.
Q Who by?
A By one Geliger.
Q Didn't you say in this letter that your statement had been extorted from you under the promise of your liberty, if you made it.
Objected to; Question withdrawn.
Q What is your age?
A Thirty-one years.
Q How old is Mr. Lingg?
A I cannot tell precisely.
Q About how old is he?
A That I cannot tell precisely; I think twenty-one or two years old.
Q He is not a man of family, is he?
A No.
Q He boarded with you?
A Yes.
Q How long had be boarded with you before the 4th of May?
A About since Christmas.
Q On the night of the third of May, Monday night, I understand you to say that you attended a Carpenters' Union meeting, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Where?
A Zeph's Hall, at Des Plaines Street.
Q You were not at 54 West Lake Street that night?
A No.
Q But you went home I understand with Mr. Lingg?
A No.
Q Did you go home alone?
A No. I went home with several others together.
Q Did you see Lingg again that night?
A He was at home when I got home.
Q Did you talk with him that night?
A No:
Q When did you first talk with him after that?
A The next morning.
Q Then you say you were engaged in the afternoon in making bombs, a number of you, at your house?
A Yes.
Q And you say that you took two of these bombs in your pocket and went up north?
A Yes.
Q And didn't return home until eleven o'clock at night?
A Yes.
Q That is correct, is it?
A Yes; it was something after eleven--a quarter after eleven.
Q What time in the evening was it that you went away from home the night of the fourth of May?
A It was about half past eight.
Q How far do you live from the Haymarket?
A Well, I don't know; about three quarters of an hour's walk.
Q Which way did you go when you and Lingg went---towards the Haymarket or away from the Haymarket?
A At what time?
Q At half past eight?
A We went to 58 Clybourne Avenue.
Q Is that in a direction away from the Haymarket or towards the Haymarket from your house?
A It is towards the Haymarket.
Q How near did you go to the Haymarket before you returned back home the first time?
A We only went to fifty-eight Clybourne Avenue and then we went in a northerly direction.
Q How far is it from your house to 58 Clybourne Avenue where you went?
A It is about a good ten minutes walk.
Q Is it half a mile or three quarters of a mile?
A That I don't know; I don't know the exact distance.
Q You say you got home about eleven o'clock the first time that night?
A Yes.
Q How near home were you when Mr. Lingg for the first time told you about the notice that was in the paper?
A That was the first time when we went home; on the way he asked me whether I had read the paper.
Q How near home were you when this statement was made?
A Five or six or eight minutes walk.
Q Was that the first knowledge you had of the notice in the "Letter Box" containing the word "Ruhe"?
A Yes.
Q Then you had been with these bomb makers all of the afternoon at your own house, started out with some of them in the evening, with bombs in your pocket, but you never yet up to that time knew of this word "Ruhe" being published in the Arbeiter Zeitung", did you?
THE COURT: That question is objectionable.
Question withdrawn.
MR. FO-STER: (Q) During the afternoon you had been with the bombmakers, had you?
A Yes.
Q And you started away with some of them?
A No.
Q Didn't you go away from your house with any of them?
A No.
Q Didn't you and Lingg go together?
A No.
Q You were at your house with Lingg and others making bombs in the afternoon, were you not?
A Yes.
Q And you worked up until evening, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q And you went away from your house at half past eight with Lingg, didn't you?
A Yes, towards half past eight.
Q And with others besides Lingg?
A No.
Q Just you and Lingg?
A Yes.
Q And then you went down to Clybourne Avenue?
A Yes.
Q And you never knew until you got near your house that there had been a call or a notice in the Arbeiter Zeitung containing the word "Ruhe"?
A No, I did not know. I thought that only the letter "Y" was in the paper.
Q When you got home about eleven o'clock, you did not intend to leave again, did you?
A No.
Q You hadn't then intended to go to the Haymarket Square, that night, had you?
A No.
Q Did Lingg say a word about going to the Haymarket Square that
night until after he got home the first time at eleven o'clock?
A Yes; he wanted to know how it looked over there---how matters stood over there.
(Question read)?
A Yes, he would like to know whether there was to be a meeting over on the West Side of the armed men.
Q Did he say a word about going to the Haymarket Square until he got home at eleven o'clock?
A Yes; he wanted to know how matters stood over there on the West Side and he would like to look in the paper and asked me whether I had read the paper.
Q Up to the time that you got home at eleven o'clock, did Lingg say anything about himself going to the Haymarket square---not about what he would like, not about what the newspaper said, but did he say anything about going himself-- about his own intention of himself going to the Haymarket before eleven o'clock?
A No, not directly about his own going to the Haymarket, but he expressed himself that he would like to know about the matter--- how matters were.
Q After eleven o'clock, he called your attention to this notice in the paper, did he, containing the word "Ruhe"?
A Yes.
Q When was it that Lingg said that he wondered what was going on at the Haymarket, or would like to know what was going on---was it about the time that they got back home?
A He wanted to know how it stood at the Haymarket previously to that time.
Q How long previous to your going home?
A O, it may have been eight minutes or twenty minutes. He wanted to know at various times how matters stood over there.
Q After you got home at eleven o'clock Lingg called your attention to this notice in the Arbeiter Zeitung, didn't he?
A Yes.
Q He told you, didn't he, at that time that under the "Letter Box" the word "Ruhe" meant the armed sections should meet at 54 West Lake Street?
A Yes; he said that a meeting had taken place there, and that that evening everything should be in confusion---was to be in confusion.
Q Have you had any conversation with any of the officers or the attorneys since noon?
A No.
Q Didn't Mr. Lingg tell you that the word "Ruhe" under the "Letter Box" meant that the armed sections were to meet at 54 West Lake Street?
A He said that a meeting had already taken place at that place and he wanted to go over to see what had happened.
Q Do you remember what you swore to just before dinner?
Objected to as immaterial; objection sustained. To which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
Q Did Mr. Lingg tell you what the word "Ruhe" meant?
A Yes.
Q When was it that you first learned that there was to be a meeting at the Haymarket?
A At Sedwick Street.
Q When?
A When I was about to go to the Carpenters' Union Meeting.
Q What day of the month was that?
A The third.
Q You say that you knew on the third that there was going to be a meeting the night of the fourth?
A Yes.
Q But you did not go to that Haymarket meeting?
A No.
Q You went around in North Chicago with bombs in your pocket, did you?
A Yes, with several together.
Q Then after you went home at eleven o'clock you were persuaded to go down to, 54 West Lake Street with Lingg, were you?
A Well, generally to the West Side; not to 54 West Lake Street particularly, but he said to the West Side to see what had happened there.
Q Don't you know that after eleven o'clock, the night of the fourth, that you and Louis Lingg started to go to Greif's Hall?
A We only wanted to go to the West Side.
Q Nothing was said about Greif's Hall?
A Yes, that also. We would surely have gone to Greif's Hall if we had gone over to the West Side.
Q Did Lingg say, "We will go to Greif's Hall"?
A Only to the West Side.
Q Nothing was said then about Greif's Hall?
A No, not directly.
Q Was there anything said about the Haymarket--about going to the Haymarket?
A Yes; he said he would like to know what had happened there at the Haymarket.
Q Was anything said about going to the Haymarket?
A No, only to the West Side.
Q So then when you testified this morning that you started to go to Greif's Hall that was not true. You now say that you did not start to go there?
Objected to; objection sustained; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
Q When you speak of going to the West Side---you and Lingg--did you understand that you meant Zeph's Hall or Greif's Hall or Flour's Hall?
A One of those halls was certainly meant, for there is no other place.
Q So then you did not talk and did not understand that you were going to the Haymarket, did you?
A No, only to know what was taking place there.
Q And you went there for information?
A Yes.
Q You did not go there to throw any bombs at anybody, did you on the West Side?
A No, not I.
Q And on the road home you threw your bombs away?
A Yes, in going from our house to Neff's Hall.
Q Then you threw your bombs away before you got to Neff's Hall?
A Yes; we laid them away under the sidewalk.
Q Was it before you got to Neff's Hall that you did that?
A Yes we laid them away before that.
Q So then you did not go to the Haymarket at all?
A No.
Q Nor you did not go to Zeph's Hall that night?
A No.
Q Who was it that carried these bombs in the box to Clybourne Avenue?
A I and Lingg.
Q Did anybody else help carry the box containing the bombs except you and Lingg?
A Yes; somebody took it from us on the way.
Q Who was it?
A His name is Muensenberg. I learned his name afterwards.
Q Who told you the name of this man was Meunsenberg?
A I heard it afterwards when I was at liberty.
Q Who told you?
A That I don't know any more.
Q Was it an officer?
A No.
Q When did you find it out?
A That I cannot tell.
Q Was it the same night that you heard it?
A No.
Q Was it after you were arrested that you heard it?
A Yes.
Q Was it after you were released that you heard it?
A Yes.
Q Were you trying to find out who it was that helped to carry the sachel?
A No; I saw a man that afternoon.
Q Did you ask the man himself what his name was?
A No.
Q Who did you ask, if anybody?
A That I cannot tell any more. I met that man also afterwards in the station---in the cell.
Q Now, didn't an officer tell you the name of this man who helped you carry the sachel on that night?
A No.
Q How many bombs did you have in the box?
A I don't know.
Q What became of them?
A We took them to Neff's Hall.
Q Do you know where any of them were after that night?
A There were some in Lingg's room afterwards as I heard; I did not see them.
Q You did not hear any exploded that night?
A No.
QN Nor from that time to this you have not heard any of them explode?
A No.
Q When you left Clybourne Avenue who started away with you--the first time after taking the bombs there?
A There were several of us left together, and I, Lingg, Thielan and a certain Lehmann were together.
Q Was it understood or agreed between you and any other men who had the bombs that night at Clybourn Avenue that any one of you was to go to the Haymarket meeting?
A No.
Q Lingg didn't have a light, did he, that night?
A No, I believe not.
Q Did he have any matches?
A That I don't know.
Q Don't you know that when the patrol wagon went by that he applied to you for a light?
A Yes.
Q You saw him have no light that night, did you?
A No.
Q You say that money has been paid to you twice by Captain Schaack. Do you know of its having been paid to your wife at different times since your arrest?
A Yes.
Q How many times?
A That I cannot say.
Q How much, do you know?
A That I cannot say; I don't know how much.
Q Don't you know about how much?
A I think twenty or twenty-five dollars.
Q Now, in going from your house to Clybourn Avenue how near were you to the Haymarket meeting?
A It was full three-quarters of an hour's walk.
Q What part of a mile is it, or how many miles?
A That I don't know---hw many miles it is.
Q Give us your best judgement, how many blocks or how many miles it is?
A It is fully three-quarters of an hour's walk.
Q Can you tell us how many blocks distant you were from the Haymarket at the nearest point?
A I cannot tell off-hand. I never counted them.
Q Were you nearer the Haymarket than 58 Clybourn Avenue?
A I don't believe so. I think we were closer, and we went up Larrabie Street.
Q The question is, did you go any nearer to the Haymarket than 58 Clybourn Avenue?
A No; I was not closer.
Q Then you mean that it would take you, walking at an ordinary rate, three-quarters of an hour to go from where you were at the nearest point to the Haymarket?
A Yes; I think that it is about that far--fully three-quarters of an hour's walk.
Q You say you went down to the police station near to your house?
A Yes.
Q You saw the patrol wagon called?
A Yes.
Q You saw the patrol wagon filled with policemen?
A Yes.
Q You saw them drive by you?
A Yes.
Q Then you went down to Clybourn Avenue?
A No; I went home first.
Q And no bomb was exploded?
A No.
Q And it was not agreed that any of you men up there were to go to the Haymarket meeting for any purpose that night?
A No, not that I know of.
Q At the time that you were making those bombs in the afternoon at your house, did you talk on general subjects in regard to the labor troubles among yourselves?
A Yee, we talked about that.
Q Who did you talk with on that occasion about that?
A I spoke with several about that.
Q Who are they?
A Lingg said that the bombs had to be finished for that evening that it was good fodder for the capitalists and the police.
Q Did you take all of your bombs up to Clybourn Avenue?
A That I don't know.
Q Did anybody else take any bombs to Clybourn Avenue besides you and Lingg?
A That I don't know.
Q Did you see anybody take any bombs except what you and Lingg took?
A No; I did not see that.
Q Do you know of anybody taking any bombs from yourself to Clybourn Avenue except you and Lingg?
A No.
Q Did you see anybody take any bomb from your house except you and Lingg?
A No, I did not see it directly, but I believe that several took some along.
Q Did you see anybody take any bombs from your house except you and Lingg?
A No.
Q Did you see the men who helped you make the bombs up at Clybourn Avenue?
A Yes.
Q Did you see them all there?
A No.
Q How many did you see there?
A I can remember two.
Q How many were making bombs at your house that afternoon.
A That I cannot state precisely I believe four, five or six.
Q And you saw nobody carry away any bombs except what was carried away in a box by you and Lingg?
A No. I did not see it directly, but I believe that some of those who were present took some of them along with them.
On motion of counsel for defendants the last sentence of the last answer stricken out.
Q You say you talked with Lingg about bombs?
A Yes.
Q And Lingg said they were good food for capitalists and police?
A Yes; he made a remark that it was the best food for capitalists and police.
Q When was it that Lingg said this?
A That afternoon.
Q Had he ever said anything about that before?
A Yes.
Q Did he say the same thing before?
A Yes, about the same thing.
Q He brought the bomb to your house some time before that, I believe?
A That I don't know; I think so---that he had some before and he worked at them.
Q Before the afternoon of the fourth of May did you ever see Lingg have any bombs at your house?
A Yes.
Q How many?
A That I cannot say.
Q He brought one there in the first place and showed it to you, didn't he?
A Yes, he showed me some pipes to me at one time, and also some
shells.
Q Did he at that time say that they were good food for capitalists and police?
A Yes, every workingman ought to have them.
Q Did he say when he brought this first bomb where and when he expected to use it?
A Yes; they were applied on occasions of strikes and where there were meetings of workingmen and were disturbed by the police.
Q Was it Engel or was it Lingg that told you that the bombs were good food for the capitalists and police?
A Both of them said so.
Q At the same time?
A No.
Q When was it that you agreed to go to Clybourn Avenue the night of the fourth?
A When the bombs were done.
Q Was that the first talk about where you should go that night after the bombs were done?
A No; it had been mentioned before.
Q When was it first mentioned that you would go to Clybourn Avenue that night?
A Before the bombs were done that afternoon.
Q Did you all agree to go to Clybourn Avenue that night?
A No, that I can't say; I don't know.
Q Did you agree to go anywhere else besides Clybourn Avenue that night?
A No; it was said that the bombs were to be taken to Clybourne
Avenue that evening.
Q Was it agreed that the bombs were to be taken anywhere else than Clybourne Avenue?
A No, I don't believe so.
Q Then you were not making bombs to be taken anywhere else than to Clybourn Avenue?
A Yes, they were to be for use on that evening, not just for use at Clybourn Avenue.
Q They were to be taken to Clybourn Avenue first and from there to be taken away?
A Yes; when they were taken to Clybourne Avenue I don't know whether they were to remain there or were to be taken to further places.
Q Did you hear of the bombs being taken or to be taken anywhere else from your house but to be taken to Clybourne Avenue?
A No, I did not hear that.
Q Then it was not agreed before that time that half of the bombs should be taken to Clybourne Avenue and half of the bombs somewhere else?
A No.
Q There was no agreement as to where the bombs should be taken after they got to Clybourn Avenue?
A No.
Q Then it was not agreed that any of the bombs manufactured on the afternoon of the fourth of May should be taken by anybody to the Haymarket, was it?
A No, I did not hear anything of that.
Q Then you were not making bombs to tqke to the Haymarket and destroy the police?
A No; they were made for the use of that evening.
Q And to be taken to Clybourne Avenue?
A Yes, for use on that evening.
Q Do you know of the manufacture of any bombs that day or any other day to be used at the Haymarket meeting on the night of the fourth of May?
A Yes, I do know.
Q You say that you know where bombs were made which were to be taken to the Haymarket on the night of the fourth?
A Before the fourth of May
Q To be used the night of the fourth at the Haymarket?
A No; I do not know as to that.
Q Then I repeat, you do not know of the making of any bombs which were to be used the night of the fourth of May at the Haymarket, do you?
A They were made everywhere to be used against capital and the police.
Q Do you know of the manufacture of a single bomb by any person at any place to be used at the Haymarket meeting on the night of the fourth of May?
A No, I cannot say that one single one was made for that purpose.
Q Do you know who had a bomb at the Haymarket the night of the fourth of May?
A No, I cannot say.
Q Did you know anybody who was expected to be at the Haymarket meeting?
A No.
Q You knew of no person then that you expected would go to the Haymarket meeting or said that they were going to the Haymarket meeting, did you, on the night of the fourth of May?
A I do not know of a certain person that was to be there.
Q Then it was not agreed by you and the other men that made those bombs that any of you should go to the Haymarket meeting the night of the fourth of May, was it?
A Oh yes, there was plenty said about it.
Q Was there anyone that said they were going to the Haymarket meeting----any of the crowd that helped to make the bombs?
A No; of that I did not hear.
Q Did you ever help to manufacture any other bombs except what you made at your own house?
A No.
Q Did you ever see any other bombs being manufactured at any place except your own house?
A No.
Q Then you know nothing of the manufacture of any bombs anywhere to be taken to the Haymarket meeting on the night of the fourth of May, do you?
A There had some been made before, which were for no other purpose but for that use, and there was always an agitation against capitalists and police.
On motion of defendants' counsel, answer ordered stricken out.
Q When did you first get acquainted with Lingg?
A Last year; I think it was in August.
Q How long have you known Mr. Engel?
A I saw him once last year in the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q Is that the only acquaintance that you have with him--seeing him once in the Arbeiter Zeitung office?
A And I saw him again at the meeting at the North Side Group at Neff's Hall.
Q Ever since you have known Mr. Lingg he has been a member of your family, has he not?
A Yes, he boarded with us.
Q How long have you been in this country?
A There and one half years.
Q How long has Mr. Lingg been here?
A That I don't know. I know him since about last August.
Q And during all that time down to the fourth of May he boarded at your house and was a member of your family, wasn't he?
A Yes, he was boarding with us.
Q When was it that you saw the bombs in the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung building?
A It was about the time of the car drivers' strike.
Q How long ago was that?
A That I don't know; I think it was last summer.
Q That was the summer of last year? 1885?
A Yes.
Q Were the bombs loaded?
A That I did not see.
Q Where were they?
A In a room where the delegates of the socialistic organizations meet.
Q How long had they met there when you saw this bomb?
A That I don't know, how long they had been meeting there.
Q How long did you know of their meeting there---about how long?
A I think as long as the Arbeiter Zeitung was in existence.
Q You mean the library room that belonged to the International Workingmen's Society, do you, was the room where you saw these two bombs?
A Yes.
Q Where were the bombs when you saw them first?
A They were below the counter. I saw them there.
Q You say Mr. Rau had them and showed them to you gentlemen present, is that correct?
A Yes; he did not show them to me but I saw them also.
Q Don't you know that they were not loaded?
A That I cannot say.
Q How long ago was it that you saw these bombs?
A It was at the time of the car drivers' strike.
Q Did you ever see any bombs in the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung, either in the editorial room or in the printing room--the press room?
A No.
Q Then you never saw any bombs in the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung, did you?
A No, not in the office; in the library room.
Q In the building you mean--in the Arbeiter Zeitung building--in this room that was used as a library room for the International Workingmen's Society?
A Yes; but it belongs to the office.
Q It belongs to the building, you mean?
A It is in the same room, and I believe it belongs to the office.
Q Don't you know that this library room of the International Workingmens' Association is on the second floor of the Arbeiter Zeitung building?
A Up one flight of stairs.
Q Don't you know that the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung and the press rooms of the Arbeiter Zeitung are all on the third floor?
A No; that I don't know.
Q Isn't this the fact: that the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung is in the front of the Arbeiter Zeitung building, and this room is in the rear of thesecond floor of that building?
A I only know the office being the front room and this library room being in the rear.
Q Then it was in the rear room-- in the library room---that you saw these bombs, which you rented for the purposes of holding your meetings?
A Yes, in there.
Q You do not know then of your own knowledge whether this library
room is a part of the office or whether it is rented exclusively as a library room?
A That I don't know precisely. I belived that it belonged to the Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q Then you do not know as to whether it did or not?
A I do not know whether that belonged to it or whether it has been rented?
Q You paid rent for that room, did you not?
A That I don't know.
Q Don't you know of bills being presented for the rent of the room for the use of your committee?
A That I don't know.
Q Don't you know as a committee man that bills had been presented for the use of this room for committee purposes?
A No.
Q Now you say that you had rifles---the armed sections?
A Yes.
Q And that you drilled on Sunday?
A Yes.
Q Do you mean that you drilled in the day time or at night?
A In the day time.
Q When did you go to your meetings for the purpose of drill--in the daytime or night time?
A In the day time.
Q Then you kept your guns at home in broad daylight, and in the presence of your neighbors and anyone that might be on the streets you walked to your hall on Sunday and drilled, did you?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that you went to the Sharpshooters' Park or to the prairie to exercise the same as many other societies did in the City of Chicago?
A Yes.
Q And you had a shooting society, did you?
A Yes.
Q And used to meet and march publicly on the streets with your guns exposed, did you?
A Yes.
Q But you called yourselves the armed section of the Lehr and Wehr Verein?
A Yes.
Q You didn't try to keep it away from the police force--that you had arms and made drills and marched, did you?
A No.
Q Now you say that you voluntarily made a statement of this case to Capt. Schaack?
A Yes.
Q Before you made the statement, didn't Schaack hit you once?
A No.
Q Didn't you have a fuss with him and a small fight?
A No.
Q No trouble with him at all?
A No.
Q You say that you have been in jail now because you wanted to stay there?
A Yes.
Q You say that you were not abused by Capt. Schaack or anybody else, do you, until the time that you made the statement when you were first arrested?
A Yes, when I was arrested one of the poicemen pulled me a little on my beard.
Q Whereabouts were you kept?
A In the Chicago, Avenue Station.
Q What kind of a cell did they give you in the first place-- didnt they give you a dingy, dark cell down in the bottom, where there was no light or no air?
A No, down below, but the cell is lighted.
Q Not the same cell that you have got now, is it?
A No, the next one to it.
Q You expected to be tried for murder, didn't you, after you were indicted?
A No; I did not know that.
Q Didn't you expect it?
A No; I did not know at all what would be done.
Q You saw in the paper that you were indicted for murder, didn't you?
A Yes, after I was at liberty.
Q And indicted for conspiracy?
A Yes.
Q And for riot?
A That I cannot say.
Q But you knew you were indicted for murder and conspiracy?
A Yes, that I read in the paper.
Q Now you know that you were indicted for conspiracy and for murder. Did you employ the services of a lawyer?
A No.
Q The only lawyers that you talked with were Mr. Grinnell and Mr. Furthmann?
A Yes.
Q And still you say that no inducements were held out for you to be a witness in this case and testify to what you have sworn to here today?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q Is the gentleman sitting behind Mr. Grinnell---Capt. Schaack--- the man whom you referred to this forenoon?
A Yes.
Q You have seen him here present during the entire time that you were giving your testimony, have you not?
A That I cannot say; I don't know.
Q Haven't you seen him frequently during the time that you have testified?
A I saw him at those various times; he was always present.
Q Have you frequently seen him here today?
A Yes I saw him not at all times.
Q And the lady who sits beyond Mr. Grinnell and who is listening to your testimony here, is your wife, is she not?
A Yes.
Re-direct Examination by Mr. Grinnell.
Q How soon after the fourth of May last was it when you were arrested and in Capt. Schaack's office?
A Well, that I don't know; I think it was the third day after.
Q When did you make the statement that you say you made the third time?
A On several occasions.
Q How long were you in the station before you were released first?
A From Friday to Friday.
Q Where did you go when you were released?
A I went home.
Q Who did you find there?
A No one.
Q How soon after that was it before you saw your wife?
A She was at the station and I went home with her.
Q How soon after you got home was it that you saw Salomon or Zeisler?
A I saw Mr. Zeisler on Sunday, towards evening.
Q At your house?
A Yes, in the yard.
Q Didn't Zeisler tell you at that time not to testify against these men, and to tell Capt. Schaack that all that you had said you would not repeat in Court?
Objected to.
Q What conversation did you and Zeisler have at the time you first saw him?
Tell what Zeisler said and what you said.
Objected to as not re-direct examination.
Question withdrawn.
Q When you left home and went into hiding where did you go?
A I went to the West Side.
Q Where?
A To Twenty-second street, the number I do not remember.
Q What is the man's name where you went?
A Gloom.
Q Did you stay with him?
A Yes.
Q How long did you stay with him?
A Two weeks and one day.
Q Was he a solcialist?
A No.
Q You went there to keep away from the socialists, did you not?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q Why did you go there?
A From fear of revenge by the workingmen---the socialists.
Q Did you see anybody after you saw Zeisler who threatened you?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q Did you see an account of this case in the newspapers---when it would be set down for trial?
A Yes.
Q Did you see the notice in the newspapers that the case was set down for trial?
A Yes.
Q And then you came directly to Capt. Schaack yourself voluntarily?
A Yes; but I first went home to see my wife, and from there I went to Capt. Schaack.