Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified through an interpreter. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. Defendant Louis Lingg was a boarder in his house, he made bombs with Lingg during the day of May 4 and he spent the evening of May 4, 1886 with Lingg. Indicted for murder in this case. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.I 538), weapons and explosives (vol.I 510), socialists and/or socialism (I 509), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.I 515), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.I 514), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.I 535), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.I 527), meaning of "Y" (vol.I 508), Neff's (Thoeringer) Hall (vol.I 517), Zepf's Hall (vol.I 507), witnesses who were given money by the prosecution or the police (vol.I 543), witnesses who were indicted for murder or conspiracy (vol.I 539), International Workingmen's Association (vol.I 520), Carpenters' Union (vol.I 507), Spies, August (vol.I 536), Lingg, Louis (vol.I 507), Louis Lingg and bomb-making (vol.I 517), Lingg's distribution of bombs (vol.I 519), Schwab, Michael (vol.I 537), Engel, George (vol.I 533), Neebe, Oscar (vol.I 536), Fischer, Adolph (vol.I 537), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.I 539).
Testimony of William Seliger (first appearance), 1886 July 21.
Volume I, 506-546, 41 p.
Seliger, William.
Carpenter; German immigrant.
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[Image, Volume I, Page 506]
Wednesday, July 21, 1886.
10 A.M.
WILLIAM SELIGER,
produced as a witness on behalf of the people, being first duly sworn, testified through sworn interpreter as follows:
Direct Examination by
MR. INGHAM.
Q What is your name?
A William Seliger.
Q What is your business?
A I am a carpenter.
Q How long have you lived in the City of Chicago?
A Three and a half years.
Q Where did you live before coming to Chicago?
A In Germany. (Charlotte Veng.
Q Where were you born?
A I was born in Eilan near Rechenbach in Sileia.
Q Where in the city of Chicago did you live on the 4th of May last?
A 442 Sedgwick Street.
Q Was the house in which you lived on the front of the lot or in the rear of the lot?
A In the rear of the lot.
Q Did you occupy the whole house or only one floor?
A One floor.
Q Which floor.
A The middle floor.
Q Did you have any boarders at that time?
A Yes.
Q Who?
A Mr. Lingg.
Q Louis Lingg?
A Yes.
Q Where were you on Monday the 3rd of May?
A I worked.
Q Who for?
A Mr. Meyer.
Q What time did you quit work?
A At half past four o'clock.
Q Where were you on the evening of Monday---the night of Monday?
A I was at Zepf's Hall on West Lake street.
Q Where is that on Lake street?
A I don't know; it is Des Plaines and Lake street.
Q On the corner?
A Yes.
Q What were you doing?
A We had a meeting of the Carpenter's Union.
Q A large meeting or a small meeting?
A A large meting.
Q Did you hold any position in the Carpenter's Union?
A Yes.
Q What position?
A I was recording secretary.
Q How long were you at Zeph's Hall that night?
Q I don't know; I believe it was half past eleven when I left.
Q Were you at the meeting at 54 Lake street that night?
A No.
Q Did you hear anything about the meeting at Zeph's Hall?
A Yes.
Q Who did you hear say anything about the meeting at 54 Lake street?
A Somebody called upon us to go to 54 East Lake street.
Q Who to go to 54 West Lake street?
A All those that knew.
On motion of counsel for defendants last answer ordered stricken out.
Q Who was the party that said anything and what did he say.
A I cannot tell who it was; someone called upon us that all of us that knew should come to 54 West Lake street.
Q Look at the paper which I now show you "Y" and the sentence, "Komme Montag abend". What does that mean, if you know?
A It is the meaning, for all the armed men to come to the meeting at 54 West Lake street.
Q What do you mean by armed men?
A That they might be informed there about matters that were to be talked about.
THE COURT: The question is who were the armed men?
A They were divers ones---all of the socialistic organization.
MR. INGHAM: Q Why were they called armed men?
A Because there were several organizations in existence which were drilled in the use of weapons---of arms.
Q After you left Zeph's Hall, where did you go?
A I went down to the saloon to take a glass of beer.
Q And then where did you go?
A And then I went to 71 West Lake Street and took another glass of beer.
Q And then where did you go?
A Then I went home.
Q What time did you leave Zeph's Hall?
A It might have been a quarter before 12 o'clock.
Q Did you go home alone or in company with anyone else?
A I went home with several other parties.
Q Look at the circular which I now show you, headed "Revenge". Did you ever see that circular?
A No.
Q Did you ever see one like it?
A Yes.
Q Where did you see it first?
A In Zeph's Hall.
Q Who brought the circular to Zeph's Hall, if you know.
A Rau.
Q Do you know his first name?
A Balthalzhar Rau.
Q What is his business?
A I don't know.
Q What time in the evening did he bring them to the hall?
A It was going on 9 o'clock; I cannot tell exactly.
Q Do you know where Rau was employed?
A Yes; he was employed on Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q Did you work on Tuesday at your trade?
A No.
Q What did you do Tuesday morning?
A I got up at half past seven and after I got up Lingg came. I had previously told him that I wanted those things removed from my dwelling.
Q Give the rest of the conversation between you and Lingg?
A He told me to work diligently at these bombs and they would be taken away that day.
Q What did you do?
A I took some coffee and after a time I worked at some shells--at some lead shells.
Q What did you do on the shells?
A I was drilling the holes.
Q Look at the shell which I now show (indicating). Was it on such a shell as that you worked?
A Yes.
Q What did you do to the shells?
A I drilled these holes.
Q The holes through which the bolt went?
A Yes.
Shell refereed to introduced in evidence on behalf of the people.
Q How long did you work on the shells that morning?
A Half an hour.
Q Was anyone helping you that morning?
A No.
Q Where was Lingg?
A He went to the West side to a meeting.
Q What time did Lingg get back?
A It was probably one o'clock or after one.
Q Did you have any conversation with him after he came back?
A No; he only said that I hadn't done much, that I ought to have worked more diligently.
Q What did you say to that?
A I said that I hadn't any more mind to work---I hadn't any pleasure at the work.
Q What did Lingg reply?
Objected to on behalf of all the defendants excepting Lingg.
A Then Lingg said "well, we have to work very diligently this afternoon."
Q Were you there during the afternoon?
A Yes.
Q What were you doing?
A I, was helping on the shell.
Q What did you do during the afternoon.
A I did different work at them.
Q Did you have any conversation with Lingg about the bolts?
A Yes.
Q When was it you had that conversation with him?
A In the morning.
Q What was the conversation about the bolts?
A He told me that he had not enough of those bolts and gave me one and told me to go to Clybourne Avenue, I believe and get there some that he had already spoken to the man about.
Q Did you get any.
A Yes.
Q How many did you get?
A I cannot tell; exactly, I think there were 50.
Q During the afternoon how long did you work on the bombs?
A I worked at them at different times, not continuously.
Q At different times during the whole of the afternoon?
A Yes.
Q Was any one else helping you?
A Yes.
Q Who?
A Huebner and Munsenberg.
Q Was anyone else besides Huebner and Munsenberg?
A Yes.
Q Who else?
A Heumann.
Q Anybody else?
A No.
Q Were there any there whose names you don't know?
A No; I don't know.
Q What room did you work in?
A In the front room; and also in Lingg's room and also in the rear room.
Q What did Lingg do that afternoon?
A He worked at different things; first he worked at gas pipes-- gas or water pipes.
Q Look at the pieces of pipe I now show you. Was he working on pieces such as those?
A Yes sir.
Q How many bombs were made that afternoon so far as you know?
A That I cannot tell exactly, but there was quite a portion of them.
Q About how many?
A I cannot tell exactly how many, but there was quite a number.
Q Can't you say about how many--whether there were three or four or a dozen or two dozen?
A Oh no; there were more; there were probably 30, 40 or 50.
Q About how many round bombs were made?
A I cannot tell that exactly.
Q Were the bombs cast that afternoon ---the round ones?
A No.
Q Who cast those bombs, if you know?
A Lingg was casting them once by himself.
Q Where did he cast them?
A In the rear room upon my stove.
Q When was it you saw him casting the bomb?
A Probably six weeks previous to the 4th of May.
Q Where was the first bomb that you ever saw?
A In Lingg's room.
Q When was that?
A That was still before that; that I cannot tell exactly, but it was more than 6 weeks.
Q Did you have any talk with Lingg at that time about the bombs or their object?
A No conversation I had with him, but he told me that he was going to make bombs.
Q Did you ever see any dynamite?
A Yes.
Q Where did you see that first?
A In Lingg's room.
Q When?
A About 5 or 6 weeks back from the 4th of May.
Q Did you have any talk with him about that dynamite?
A Yes; he told me that he had some dynamite.
Q Did you have any talk with him about the objects of that dynamite?
A Well, he said that every working man should have some dynamite and that there should be considerable agitation, that every working man would learn to use---to handle those things.
Q During the day on Tuesday while you were making the bombs, did
you have any talk with Lingg about what the bombs were to be used for?
A Yes.
Q What conversation did you have with him about that?
A Well, he said that was going to be good fodder for the capitalists and the police when they came to protect the capitalists.
Q Was anything said about when they wanted the bombs completed or ready?
A No. I only told him that I wanted those things out of my room.
Q Was there any conversation between you and Lingg as to what time the bombs were to be completed?
A Not positively, as to time, no; it was only a remark that they should be used that evening---that they were to be used that evening.
Q What time did you leave your house that evening?
A It was about half past 8 in the evening.
Q How long during the afternoon was Huebner at the house?
A That I cannot tell precisely; probably from four to half past five or six o'clock.
Q What was Huebner doing while he was there?
A That I did not see exactly, what he did at them.
Q What he did at what?
A At the bombs.
Q In what room was Huebner working?
A In the front room.
Q In which room were you?
A I was in Lingg's room.
Q Where was Lingg?
A Lingg was in the front room.
Q How long was Musenberg there?
A The same time that Huebner was there.
Q How long was Thielan there?
A I cannot tell precisely; I think he was there half an hour or not quite that.
Q What was he doing?
A That I did not see.
Q When you left your house in the evening who went with you?
A Lingg.
Q How long were the Lehmans there?
A They were not long there either. I cannot tell that precisely either.
Q. What were they doing?
A. That I did not see either.
Q What room were they in?
A In the front room.
Q What was Heumann doing?
A He also worked at the bombs.
Q When you left the house in the evening who went with you?
A Lingg.
Q What did you have?
A We had a little trunk in which we had bombs.
Q Describe the little trunk that you had?
Q That I cannot tell precisely; it was probably two feet long, one foot high and one foot wide.
Q What was it made of?
A I did not see what it was made out of; it was covered with coarse linen.
Q What did you have in that?
A Bombs.
Q What kind of bombs?
A Pipes and round.
Q How many did you have?
A I cannot tell exactly how many there were.
Q About, how many did you have?
A I cannot tell how many.
Q About how much did that trunk weigh?
A They might have weighed from 30 to 50 pounds.
Q Were those bombs loaded or empty?
A Yes, they were loaded.
Q How did you carry that package?
A We had drawn a stick or pole through the handle.
Q Who had?
A Lingg had broken a stick and we pulled it through
Q Did Lingg help you to carry the bundle?
A Yes.
Q Where did you go with it?
A To Neff's Hall, 58 Clybourne Avenue.
Q What were the bombs loaded with?
A With dynamite.
Q Did you have any caps with you?
A No; they were in the bombs.
Q Where were they in the bombs?
A In that hole (indicating).
Q Look at the article which I now show you. What is that?
A That is a fuse and a cap.
Q Were the bombs fixed with caps like this?
A Yes.
Q Before you got to Neff's Hall, did anybody meet you?
A Yes.
Q Who?
A Muensenberg. I did not know his name previous to that. I heard it afterwards.
Q Were the bombs taken into that building?
A Yes, 58 Clybourne Avenue.
Q Who took them into the building?
A Muensenberg took them in.
Q Where were they taken first in the building?
A Through the saloon on the side into the hallway that led from the saloon out to the rear.
Q Look at the plat which I now show you. Show on there (indicating) in what room the bombs were taken first?
A In the saloon (indicating).
Q Then where were they taken?
A In the side door into the hall (indicating).
Q Where were they left?
A In this place (indicating).
Q What is this room back here (indicating) marked "hall"?
A It is a hall.
Q After the bombs were put down in that passageway what became of them?
A It was open and several persons came and took bombs.
Q What did you see done there with the bombs?
A There were different ones there who took bombs out for themselves.
Q Who took bombs whose names you know?
A That I cannot tell precisely, who took bombs there.
Q How many persons did you see take bombs?
A Three or four.
Q Did you take any yourself?
A Yes.
Q How many did you take?
A Two.
Q What kind of ones---round or pipe?
A I took pipe bombs.
Q Where did you carry them?
A We went away from Neff's Hall.
Q Where did you carry the bombs which you took-- in your hands or in your pockets?
A In my pocket.
Q When you left Neff's Hall, where was the package of bombs?
A Still in that passageway.
Q What is the name of the hall back of Neff's Hall?
A It is known under the name of the "Shanty of the communists."
Q Who used to meet in that hall, so far as you know?
A The socialists.
Q What organizations of socialists used to meet there?
A All the various shades of them--communists, anarchists and socialists.
Q Do you remember what groups met there?
A Yes.
Q Which ones?
A The North Side groups.
Q Of the International Workingmens Association?
A Yes.
Q Any companies of the Lehr and Wehr Verein?
Objected to as leading.
Q What other organizations met there besides the North Side group?
A I heard that Saxonbund met there; beyond that I cannot say; there were several meeting there but I cannot tell.
Q When you left Neff's Hall, that night with the bombs in your pocket who were with you?
A Lingg, Thielan and Lehmann.
Q Which Lehmann?
A Gustav.
Q Any others whose names you can remember?
A Those that left the hall directly I cannot say, but there was some others that came to us afterwards.
Q Who were those?
A There were two of the Lehr und Wehr verein; they were large men.
Q Did those who were with you have bombs?
Objected to as leading.
Q Did those with you have anything, and if so, what was it?
A I believe they all had bombs.
Q How about Lingg?
A I cannot tell how many he had?
Q After leaving Neff's Hall, where did you go.
A We went to Larrabie street.
Q Whereabouts on Larrabie street?
A On Clybourne Avenue, north.
Q Where to?
A Towards Lincoln Avenue.
Q Tell what happened after you left Neff's Hall.
A We went down Clybourne avenue towards Larrabie street to the Larrabie street station where we halted.
Q Who halted there?
A Lingg and myself.
Q What had become of the others who had started with you?
A That I don't know; some went ahead of us.
Q Now, for what purpose did you go down to the Larrabie street sta-ion?
Objected to.
Q Tell whatever was said between you and Lingg or any of the others as to what you were going to do that night?
A Well, there was to be made a disturbance that night on the North Side; that had been previously determined on as I heard. There was to be made a disturbance on the North side that evening, which had previously been determined upon; there were disturbances to be
made on the West and North Side to prevent the police to go over to the West Side.
Motion to exclude answer as not responsive and as incompetent.
Motion overruled; to which ruling of the court, defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
Q Tell what conversation you had wiht Lingg that night while you were walking from Neff's Hall?
A There should be made a disturbance everywhere on the North side to keep the police from going over to the West side.
Q What happened while you and Lingg were in front of the Larrabie street station?
A He expressed the opinion that it might be a beautiful thing if we would walk over and throw one or two bombs into the police station.
Q Who expressed that opinin?
A Lingg.
Q What else was said about that?
A Well, there were two policemen sitting in front of the station and he said if the others came out these two could not do much; we would shoot these two down.
Q What else happened while you were there?
A Then we proceeded on our way.
Q Tell what happened?
A We went further north to Lincoln avenue and Larrabie street where we halted and took a glass of beer.
Q Is there any police station near that place?
A Yes, there is one.
Q Do you know the name of it?
A Yes, I know it, but I heard it afterwards.
Q What is the name of it?
A The Western Avenue Station
Q Is the Western Avenue or the Webster avenue?
A The Webster.
Q After you left that saloon, what happened?
Q Then we proceeded a few blocks north, and then we turned about and came back.
Q Go on?
A Then we came back to North Avenue and Larrabie street; then we stood there; while we stood there some policemen came from the outside, and we stood there a little while longer and the patrol wagon came; there were some calls when the policemen came---some one had come out of the station and called and that brought the policemen to the spot.
Q Where were you when the patrol wagon passed?
A South of North Avenue and Larrabie street.
Q What happened as the patrol wagon came along?
A Lingg wanted to throw a bomb.
Q What did he say.
A He said that is the best opportunity.
Q Give the whole of the conversation between you and Lingg at that time? What did you say to Lingg and what did he say to you?
What did he do and what did you do?
A Lingg said that he was going to throw the bomb, that was the best opportunity to throw the bomb and I said it would be without effect, it wouldn't have any purpose.
Q What else was said or done?
A Then he became quite wild, excited, said that I should give him some fire--- a light.
Q Go on.
A I was smoking a cigar and I jumped into the front hall---the front opening before a store and lighted a match, the same as if I intended to light a cigar, so that I could not give him a light; otherwise he would have thrown the bomb.
Last part of the answer beginning with the words "so that" ordered stricken out on motion of defendants' counsel.
Q When you got the light, where was the patrol wagon? When you had lighted your cigar where was the patrol wagon?
A It was just coming---passing.
Q What did you say to Lingg and what did he say to you after he got the light?
A I said it would be without a purpose and he was going to go after the wagon.
Q What did he say.
A He said he was going to go after the wagon to se what had happened, saying that something had certainly happened on the West Side, or some trouble.
Q Was there anybody in the patrol wagon?
A Yes; it is completely manned.
Q How near were you to the police station at the time you stepped in for the light?
A About four of five houses distant.
Q In which direction was the patrol wagon going?
A South on Larrabie street.
Q What did you do after that?
A I went into a boarding house between Mohawk street and Larrabie street and lighted a cigar.
Q Then what did you do?
A Then we went towards home.
Q Before you went to your home did you have any talk with Lingg about whether you should stay on the street or whether you should go home?
A Yes; he first wanted to wait until the patrol wagon would come back but I importuned him to go home with me.
Q What time did you get home?
A It was probably shortly before eleven. I cannot tell exactly.
Q Did you have any talk with Lingg on your way home?
A Yes; he asked me whether I had seen the papers and seen that there was a notice or whether I had seen a notice that a meeting should be held on the West side, of the armed men.
A Go on.
A I said no, I had seen nothing. Lingg was going to go out right away, but I asked him not to do so, and I took the paper and tore it in two parts and he took one and I took one.
Q What paper was that?
A The Arbeiter Zeitung. Therupon he said "here it is."
Q Did he show you the paper at that time?
A Yes.
Q What did he call your attention to?
A To the wore "ruhe."
Q Look at the paper which I now show you marked People's Exhibit 4. Did you see the word in that paper?
A Yes.
Q Is that the same that you saw in your house?
A Yes; that is the same.
Q Now, what talk did you have with Lingg-- what did you say to him and what did he say to you about that word "Ruhe"?
A He had previously asked me if I had read the paper, and I had told him no, because I had reference to the "Y" and I hadn't known anything about the word "Ruhe" until we got home; and there upon he said "here it is".
Q What talk did you have about what the word " "Ruhe" meant?
A I did not know the meaning of the word "Ruhe" until the time I saw it.
Q What did he say to you about it?
A He said there had been a meeting on the West Side and he was going to go at once to it;--there was to have been a meeting on the West Side, there was to be that night.
Q What else did Lingg say about the word "Ruhe"?
A That everything was to go upside down--topsy turvy---that there was to be trouble.
Q Give everything that Lingg said as fully as you can about what
the word "Ruhe" meant?
A He said to me that a meeting had been held at 54 West Lake street and it was determined upon that the word "Ruhe" should appear in the papers as a signal for the armed men to appear at that meeting.
Q Repeat what Lingg said to you about the meaning of the word "Ruhe".
A Well, he said that a meeting had been held at which it was determined that the word "Ruhe" should go into the paper for all the armed men to appear at 54 West Lake street, that there should be trouble.
Q After you had a talk with Lingg about the word "Ruhe" what did you do?
A We went away; he was going over on the West Side, and I talked with him to go with me to Clybourne Avenue, where I went.
Q Where were you going?
A To Neff's Hall, 58 Clybourne Avenue.
Q Where did Lingg say he wanted to go?
A To the West Side.
Q What happened after you got to Neff's Hall?
A We went in and there were several persons present.
Q After you got to Neff's Hall, what conversation did you have with Lingg, or did he have with others in your presence?
A I did not speak with Lingg at Neff's Hall.
Q Did you hear him say anything to others or others say anything to him?
A Others were speaking to him.
Q What did others say to Lingg?
A A certain Hermann said to him in a very energetic tone of voice, "You are the fault of all of it."
Q What did Lingg say to that?
A That I did not hear; they thereupon spoke in a subdued tone.
Q Did you hear anything said there about the Haymarket in the presence of Lingg?
A Yes.
Q What was that?
A That a bomb had fallen which had killed many and wounded many.
Q What did Lingg say in that connection?
A That I did not hear.
Q Did you have any other conversation with Lingg that night-- any other talk?
A Yes; we had some talk, but I don't remember.
Q Do you remember any talk with him on your way home?
A Yes, he made the remark that he was even now scolded.-jibbed for the work he had done.
Q What time did you get home?
A It was shortly after twelve.
Q What became of the bombs which you had?
A We laid them off on our way.
Q Where did you put them?
A On Siegel street.
Q Where abouts on Siegel street?
A Between Sedgwick and Hurlbert---near Hurlbert.
Q Where abouts on the street did you put them?
A Under an elevated sidewalk.
Q What kind of bombs did you put there?
A I laid two pipe bombs there.
Q What kind did Lingg put there, if you saw them?
A That I don't know; I did not see.
Q Did you see Lingg put anything there?
A Yes.
Q But you did not see what it was?
A No, but he laid bombs there; it was nothing else; one bomb or several bombs, I cannot say with certainty, but surely bombs.
Q What time did you get home that night last?
A Shortly after twleve.
Q What time did you get up in the morning?
A Probably six o'clock.
Q What time did Lingg get up?
A That I don't know.
Q Did you have any conversation with Lingg that morning?
A No.
Q Did you have any talk with him during Wednesday?
A Not until evening when he got home.
Q Did you have any with him then?
A Yes.
Q What?
A We spoke about the meeting at the Haymarket.
Q What did he say about it?
A If the workingmen had the advantage of it.
Q What became of Lingg after that?
A We went together to a meeting; there was to be a meeting at Fifth avenue at Seaman's Hall.
Q Did Lingg live at your house after that?
A Yes.
Q When was the first time that you ever saw any dynamite in your house?
A Perhaps a good six weeks previous to the 4th of May.
Q Who brought that to your house?
A Lingg.
Q Had you ever seen dynamite before that?
A No.
Q Did he ever bring any other dynamite to your house?
A Yes.
Q When?
A That I cannot say now; I believe it was on Friday before that Tuesday, the 4th of May.
Q How was that dynamite put up; what was it in and in what shape?
A It was in a wooden box of considerable size.
A Describe the size of it?
A It was about 3 feet in length and about 16 to 18 inches in height, and of the same breadth.
Q Was there anything in that wooden box?
A Yes; it contained dynamite.
A Any other box inside the wooden one?
A Yes.
Q What kind of a box was that?
A I could not see it distinctly, but I believe it was a tin box.
Q Where in the rooms--in what sort of a package ---was the dynamite with which you filled the bombs, or with which any of you filled the bombs on Tuesday? Was it in a box or bureau or what?
A It was in Lingg's room and in that large wooden box.
Q The box which he brought on Friday?
A Yes.
Q How did you handle the dynamite--with your hands or with some kind of an instrument?
A With our hands and with a flat piece of wood.
Q Who told you to use the flat piece of wood?
A Lingg made it for more convenience in filling.
Q Were you or have you ever been a member of any socialistic order of this city?
A Yes sir.
Q Look at the instrument I now show you. Do you know that?
A Yes.
Q What is that (indicating)?
A It is the pan to cast those shells.
Same offered in evidence on behalf of the people.
Q Who used it to cast the shells in?
A Lingg used it.
Q Did you ever have any conversation with Lingg as to the humber of bombs he had made?
A Yes.
Q How many did he say he had made?
A He said that he might have made 80 to 100, all in all.
Q When you went and bought bolts, how did the ones you got compare with this one (referring to bolt about 2 1-2 inches long)?
A They were something like that; he had several kinds, but such as that he gave me along as a pattern after which to get the others.
Q What Socialistic association are you a member of?
A The North Side group.
Q Was that a group of the International Workingmens Association.
A Yes.
Q Did you hold any office in that association?
A Yes, formerly in the last year I held several.
Q What position did you hold in it?
A I was financial secretary.
Q Were you ever recording secretary?
A No.
Q What was your number in that group?
A At last I was No. 72; my first number I had lost.
Q How long were the members known by number? When did they first begin to give them numbers?
A Fully two years back.
Q Do you know Engle?
A Yes.
Q Where have you seen Engle?
A In the North Side group.
Q Have you ever heard him make any speeches to the North Side Group?
A Yes.
Q When?
A This last winter.
Q Where was it that he made the speech to the North Side Group?
A In Neff's Hall.
Q When was it?
A That I don't know precisely; it was last winter.
Q What did Engle say at that meeting?
A He said that every one should manufacture those bombs for themselves; that these pipes could be found everywhere without any cost.
Q Did he say anything about how-- in what manner the bombs could be made?
A Yes.
Q What did he say about that?
A That they were to be closed up with wooden blocks fore and aft and that in one of the blocks was to be drilled a hole for the fuse and cap.
Q Did he say anything about the purpose for which these bombs should be used?
A Yes.
Q Look at the piece of pipe I now show you. What is that?
A That is a bomb.
Q Is that the shape in which they are when they are ready for use?
A Yes.
Q What is this?
A This is a loaded bomb.
(Upon the suggestion of the Court the State's Attorney instructed Capt. Bonfield to remove the charge of dynamite from all the loaeed bombs in the Court Room.)
Q Did you hear Engle say anything in that meeting as to the purposes for which these bombs should be used?
A Yes.
Q What did he say in regard to that?
A That every workingman should arm himself with them, that they were cheap to be had and that they were the best means against the police and capitalists.
Q Have you heard him make other speeches?
A No.
Q Did you ever see any bombs at any other place than your own house that Tuesday night?
A Yes two.
Q Where did you see them?
A At the Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q When did you see them there?
A Last year, at the time of the car driver's strike.
Q Who was present when you saw those bombs?
A That I don't know any more, precisely who were present.
Q Who showed them to you?
A They were not shown to me but Rau showed them to someone.
Q Do you remember whether any of these defendants were present at that time?
A Yes, Spies was present.
Q Was that in the day time or night time?
A It was at night, in the evening.
Q Had you seen bombs at any other time than that?
A No.
Q How many bombs did you see at that time?
A Two.
Q What kind of bombs were they ---were the round or long?
Q There was one round bomb and one long one-- not very long.
Q What were you doing at the Arbeiter Zeitung at that time?
A I was a delegate from the North Side Group.
Q A delegate to what?
A There were delegates meeting there every two weeks at the Arbeiter Zeitung of all the groups.
Q What do you call that body of delegates?
A The general committee.
Q Of what?
A The general committee of all the groups of Chicago.
Q Do you know Neebe?
A Yes.
Q How long have you known him?
A About two years.
Q Do you know whether he was a member of any group of the International or not?
A Yes.
Q Of what group?
A The North Side Group.
Q Do you know Schwab?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether he was a member of any group of the International or not?
A Yes.
Q Of what group?
A The North Side Group.
Q Do you know Fischer?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether he is a member of any group or not?
A Yes, but I cannot tell that with positiveness.
Q Do you know Lingg?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether he belonged to any group or not?
A Yes.
Q To what group did he belong?
A To the North Side Group.
Q Do you know Engle?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether he belonged to any group or not?
A Yes, he did belong to a group but I cannot tell to which one.
Q How often were the Noth Side Group in the habit of meeting?
A Every week.
Q What day of the week?
A Monday.
Q In the day time or in the night time?
A In the evenings.
Q What did you do at those meetings or what did the members do?
A There was mostly speeches made or a review of what had happened during the week.
Q Did the members exercise in any way or drill?
A Yes, on Sundays.
Q With what did they drill?
A With rifles.
Q How many member of the North Side Group had rifles?
A I cannot say.
Q Where were the rifles kept?
A Every one took his own rifle with him home.
Q Did you have a rifle?
A Yes.
Q Where did you keep yours?
A In my dwelling.
Q What was the object or purpose of those groups?
Objected to.
Question withdrawn.
Q Look at the book I now show you marked People's Exhibit 6 (Herr Most's book). Have you ever seen that book before, or copies of it?
A Yes; I saw that several times.
Q Where have you seen that book?
A At public meetings of the North Side Group.
Q Who handled it?
A Huehner had charge of these books latterly; there were several books for sale.
Q Who did the books belong to while Huebner had charge of them?
A The North Side Group bought them and sold them.
Q Was Huebner their librarian?
A Yes sir.
Q Look at the photograph which I now show you (People's Exhibit 5) Do you know who that is?
A Yes sir.
Q Who is that?
A That is Rudolph Schnaubelt.
MR. SALOMON: We move to exclude the testimony given by the witness in behalf of all the defendants, and especially other than Mr. Lingg as immaterial and irrelevant.
Motion overruled; to which ruling of the Court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
Cross Examination by
Mr. Foster:
Q What is the number of your house and the street on which you lived on the 4th of May last?
A 442 Sedgwick street.
Q Where have you been since that time?
A Since then I was arrested and have been away a few weeks.
Q Where have you been?
A On the West Side.
Q Haven't you been in jail?
A At the Chicago, Avenue Station.
Q How long have you been at the Chicago Avenue station?
A The first time fully a week.
Q How long were you out then before you were taken back again?
A I was not taken back. I went there of my own accord.
Q How soon afterwards?
A Three weeks and one day after.
Q Three weeks and one day after the 4th of May, or three weeks and one day after you were turned out?
A Three weeks and one day after I had been discharged or let go.
Q You say you went back on your own accord?
A Yes sir.
Q Have you been kept there ever since?
A I staid there voluntarily.
Q And you have been there ever since locked up?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you first make the statement in which you have testified to here today?
A At various times.
Q When did you make the first one?
A At first when I was arrested.
Q Did you make a statement of all that you have testified to today?
A No.
Q When did you make for the first time a statement of what you have testified to here today?
A The first day after I was discharged and the Sunday thereafter- Saturday and Sunday after I was discharged.
Q That is, you were at your house at the time you made the statement, were you?
A Yes.
Q Who was present?
A That I don't know---who all were present.
Q Who were some who were present, if you know---were any of the officers, detectives or counsel?
A There were some detectives present.
Q Any lawyers?
A No.
Q This was the first statement that you made, was it?
A Yes.
Q Where were you when you made the full statement that you have testified to today?
A At the Chicago Avenue Station.
Q Who was present?
A There were considerable present---Mr. Schaack and some detectives and Mr. Furthmann.
Q Anybody else besides Captain Schaack and Mr. Furthmann?
A That I don't know.
Q When was it that you made this statement----how long ago now?
A After I had been in prison seven days-- the day after and the second day after.
Q Had you been indicted for murder at that time, or had you been told that you had been indicted for murder when you made the last statement?
A No; that I cannot say.
Q The officers told you that they intended to indict you for murder, did they not?
A I was not told anything like that. I was only told that it would be to my best advantage if I told the truth.
Q How many statement have you made in writing and signed?
A Three times.
Q Were your statements different on those three different occasions, or why did you make three?
A At first I hadn't said much.
Q You understood, did you not, that these statements which you made were to prevent your being prosecuted and being convicted possibly of this murder?
A That I don't know.
Q Don't you know that many of the statements which you made were because you believed it would prevent your own trial and conviction possibly of the crime of murder, and were you not so told by the officers?
A No, I was not told that.
Q How many times have you talked to the officers and the attorneys in regard to your testimony from the fourth of May to the present time?
A I cannot tell precisely. I think about five or six times.
Q Don't you know that since this trial was begun that you have stated to the officers of the State that your statement was not true, and that you could not or would not swear to it, or that in substance?
A I told them that the statement I made was true.
Q Didn't you state that the last statement and all except the second statement were not true?
A The first in substance is about the same as I have said before.
Q Didn't you say that the last statement was not true and that you could not and would not swear to it? Did you say that to any officer or any attorney representing the State?
A No. I said that that was true, and those statements I would make again.
Q Now, don't you know that you refused to come into court at the beginning of this trial and swear to the facts that you have sworn to now?
A No, I did not refuse.
Q You haven't done any work, have you, during the time you have been in jail, or earned any money?
A No; I did not work.
Q How have you supported your family?
A Well, I myself had a few dollars, and my wife had some money.
Q Have you received any money from any of the officers of the City of Chicago since your first arrest?
A Yes.
Q Who from?
A From Captain Schaack.
Q From anybody else than Captain Schaack?
A No.
Q How many times have you received money from Captain Schaack?
A Twice.
Q How much each time?
A Once a dollar and a half and at another time five dollars.
Q And that is all the money you have received since you have been in jail, is it?
A Yes.
Q You heard that you were indicted for the murder of Mr. Degan, didn't you?
A Yes, I heard that when I was at liberty; I read it in the paper.
Q Who was it told you that you were indicted for the murder of Mr. Degan?
A I read it in the paper.
Q Did anybody tell you?
A No.
Q All you know about it is that you read it in the paper?
A Yes.
Q Didn't you know before this case was begun that you were not to be tried?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q Then you expected to tried, did you, for the murder of Mr. Degan, along with Mr. Spies and the other defendants?
A That I did not know.
Q When the trial was commenced did you inquire of any of the officers why you were not brought out for trial?
A No sir, I did not ask about it.
Q Then you did not know that you were expected to be a witness instead of a defendant at this trial?
A No; I did not know that.
Q Didn't you promise Captain Schaack that you would be a witness against these men at the time and before the time that he gave you this money?
A That I was not told. I was only told to tell the truth, and asked whether I would tell the truth before the court, and I said yes.
Q What did the captain say if you would come in and tell the story which he written down and which you had signed about your trial, if anything?
A He did not say anything about that.
Q So you did not know when you came on the stand as a witness that by doing so you cleared yourself of this offense?
A I thought that if I told the truth that I might get along the best, that it would be the best for me.
Q You thought if you testified to what Captain Schaack had written and to what you signed that then you would not be tried for murder, did you?
A That I did not know. I only thought it would be to my best advantage if I told the truth.
Q In what way to your best advantage?
A Well, to my best advantage--that I might not be dealt with so severely.
Q Didn't Capt. Schaack tell you that if you would swear to what he had written on the paper and you signed that you would never be tried for murder?
A No; he didn't say anything about that; he only told me that it would be the best if I would tell the truth, and asked me whether I would tell the truth before the court and I said yes, that I would repeat it here in court.
Adjourned to 2 P.M.